Liberal, left-leaning "Baptists?"

I'm sorry Ernie, we other members have decided that you must leave this congragation, you have all but admitted in that statement that you have a problem with a sin on a daily basis. Sin that is committed on a daily or even weekly bases is a Lifestyle since we can see this sin as part of your day-to-day life.

We know you don't want to commit these sins but you are doing so anyway. We will give you 6 months to overcome them and at that point, we will decide if you can come back to us. Bye Ernie, we will be praying for you!

Now we all go back into our private room and gossip about your sins.

 

Great job of editing/para-phrasing/mis-quoting etc post-it! I just checked your profile to see if you might be a reporter for the NY Times.

 

Now what I am seeing on this thread are excuses for sinful behavior, i.e. homosexuality versus gossip! Spare us!

My point about the Church of the False Prophet is that churches are already sliding away from preaching the Word...the Church of the False Prophet is only a step or half-step away!

Wake up, Church. Preach the Word in season and out of season. Too many churches are interested in being politically correct, not offending, preaching a "social" gospel to itching ears, fallen away. The Church of Laodicea, lukewarm,...WILL be SPEWED from the mouth of a Righteous God!

Preach the Word. Preach against SIN--all of it! The Holy Spirit will convict...that is part of what He does, or have we forgotten that?

There IS a difference between the Redeemed who seek to live for Christ in these earthly bodies (i.e. spirit and flesh warring against each other), and those who choose to live a sinful lifestyle, serving themselves and their fleshly lusts and desires (carnal Christians).

Bottom line, if the Word is faithful to be preached, the Holy Spirit will convict.

 

I was just practicing my gossip/gluttony/homosexual speech on Ernie. Ya' know, trying it on for size. Preparing for any denial of sin. Just wanting all my basis covered for when we start putting people on the scale for weight loss etc, then kicking them out of church.

Eating too much is a lifestyle too, right? Since hidden sin could be a problem, how far can we go in determining if they are on the right road. Car and Purse search for food receipts and candy bars. Maybe a house to house search. As for the homosexual, would that be how far they extend their pinky finger when they drink tea or live video feed?

This sounds sarcastic but its not, based on what has been put forth as an answers so far. In fact, it would be called for under the answers we have been given so far.

How do we deal with hidden or denied sin? We aren't and we can't.

There are still other questions I posed that no one seems to be able or willing to answer. The reason is that conflicting answers will arise. Conflicting answers only arise when wrong interpretation is being used. Thus, the few answers we have had are in conflict and can't be the whole answer to this problem.

 

Eagellives911, I don't think any of us here is saying not to preach against sin. None of us here agree that sin is ok. What we are discussing is how do we look at the Christian sinners within our church and how do we deal with it. Here is the conflict so far.

Some say that sinners should not be allowed to remain in the church after having worked on it and failed.

Some say those who can't defeat one particular sin were never truly saved, thus no loss in kicking them out and it saves the rest of the congregation from having to put up with it and possible weakening them.

Some say that different sins are committed by everyone of the congregation and those are ok and those people are truly saved. We can allow that, we just can't allow the single sin that can't be defeated.

Some say the only the Holy Spirit is going to convict the sinner and deal with the problem. And where he doesn't the church will.

The problem is that if all these things are followed, we will not have any church left since most people have some nagging sin that they can't or don't want to get rid of.

We also have a conflict over they difference we are making between the single sin sinner and the multi sin sinner. How much of a real difference is there?

Next conflict, how is it fair that we kick out the sinner who we can witness as sinning and leave the hidden sinner alone? We just reward those who learn to hide there sins better. The fat man who claims he is fat due to heredity instead of all the trips to McDonalds. The gossip who does all her sinning on the phone at home with three other ladies. on and on...

Paul says he can't help but do the very things he doesn't want to do. He admits he is helpless against sin. Why then does he also tell us to kick out the sinner who can't stop sinning?

[ May 14, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

What are you going to do with 1 Corihtanis 5?

Ernie

 

I think the problem is that you are implying the life of the believer requires entire sanctification. If some with a little sin may remain, why do some with a lot of sin get put out? We are not perfect until Christ returns. So what do we do with still being "sinners"?

John tells us:

1 John 1:5 ¶ This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;
7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 ¶ If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
2:1 ¶ My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 ¶ And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

The Christian is never perfect in this life, although he must strive to be. The true believer sins, experiences shame and guilt for shaming his Lord, turns and repents in true repentance and sorrow. The false Christian says "I am forgiven and can do anything I want", sins, has no remorse or shame and doesn't care if he brings reproach upon the name of the Savior. The true believer "walk in the light, as he is in the light"; the false believer "says he has no sin, and deceives himself".

It is the case of tares and the wheat of which Jesus spoke. The Christian life is one of pressing on and going forward:

Phil 3:8 Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ
9 ¶ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith;
10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
11 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶ Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you.
16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

 

Chris, from your post I assume that you would tolerate the homosexual who is trying to fight the situation and is truly not wanting to have sex, but they may be in a battle they keep losing (slipping) and they end up having sex, then afterwards they go back into torment and the fight. This win/lose battle can go on for many years. But you are saying you would not kick this person out of church as long as he wasn't claiming it was OK to be homosexual and continued to earnestly fight against his fleshly desires.

Did I get that right? I don't want to assume anything wrong here. If that is not what you implied here, let me know.

 

I STILL say, (must I scream this?) if the Word is preached consistently, the Holy Spirit will convict! The WHOLE WORD, including the parts about backbiting, lying, adultery, homosexuality, etc. The sin will be rooted out of the camp by the Holy Spirit!

Okay, I will raise some other questions. Ya'll are discussing things that are open such as homosexuality, gossip, etc.

Well, what about the "secretive" sins, that the Church can't deal with, because the Church doesn't know about them....such as:

The man who spends hours with Internet porn in his private office away from the family?

Or the woman who secretly has phone sex with a co-worker?

The driver who curses and flips the bird at other drivers?

The person who pads his deductions on Federal Income tax (hoping to never get audited).

The woman who buys a dress, wears it for a special event, and returns it for a refund?

Well, you get my point.

Not every sin is an open sin that others (in the Church) can know about.

But the Holy Spirit knows ALL! If the Word is preached consistently, the Holy Spirit will convict.

You know, the story about if you throw a rock in the middle of a pack of dogs, the one who gets hit is the one who yelps????

Well, what about extending the "right hand of fellowship" to a new person that nobody in the Church really knows outside of the Church? Like on the basis of Christian "experience." Or do the Catholics have it right by conducting classes (I forget what it is called...catechism?)...

I think the original post has it right....and, I might add, if the whole counsel of the Word of God was preached, there wouldn't be any "liberal" Baptist churches.

 

Post-it said:

Post-it, I think your description is exactly how we should treat sinners. I have seen this done with alcoholics. They struggle with the desire & sometimes they go back & get drunk. When this happens, we respond biblically and tell them they must repent of the sinful action & continue trusting God's power. People who are sincere in this process will struggle with the temptation, perhaps for life, but they will find, over time, that the "slips" are less severe (they slip and look at material or engage in a fantasy rather than slip into a sexual act) and occur less frequently. Also, as they renew their minds and change their patterns of life, they develop new relationships which replace the old sinful ones. True and genuine change is possible for the Christian, but for some it is slow. The church needs to recognize that change is a process and be willing to forgive repeated offenses (70 X 7 times) and continue to work to restore the sinning brother.

I think that ALL Christians have besetting sins with which they struggle. I think that all of us are the the process of falling, seeking repentence, being restored & growing closer to God as a result of the process. The struggle makes us conscious of the fact that we are sinners--not theoretical sinners--but actual sinners who are constantly in need of God's grace. "Victory" over sin is not a one-time occurence, but is a result of constant dependence on God. It is the people who claim to be Christians who do not struggle with sin in this way who often have sins that they refuse to acknowledge and thus delude themselves. They often sit in judgement of others, but miss the joy of having to humble themselves before God.

[ May 14, 2002, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: swaimj ]

 

Thanks swaimj,

Does this mean that we should all just threat the homosexual like we threat everybody else in church. Also meaning that we don't go out of our way to point out this problem over any other problem? Should we stop with all the extra emphais on this one sin above all others? Do we allow a more open door policy to the homosexual as we do all the other sinners. Do we stop our anti-homosexual campaign since we don't have similar campaigns going against other sinners? Do we stop our Christian leaders from using this sin to make money? It happens to be the sin of the hour, next time it may hit closer to home for you.

 

Post it,
I stand on that which I had posted earlier today. Again I state, the issue is repentance. Sin is to be dealt with and restoration to be brought about by repentance. Those who do not repent of their sin, and openly rebel are to be excomunicated. The issue is not whether or not the sin is more acceptable to one personally, or if it be seen as something horendous like murder, whatever the case, it is to be dealt with. People who struggle, but are truly repentant, are embraced. People who do not, they must leave. I would rather have 5 repentant men and woman in my church than a 500 people fooling themselves walking around playing church, falsely believing that they are saved.

In HIM,
I call Him LORD!
Scott

[ May 14, 2002, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

Post-it,
I think there is a subtle shift in your argument which you, perhaps, do not realize, so let me point it out and address it. You are asking how this sin should be dealt with in the church. I think you and I agree on the process. However, near the end of you last post, you asked:

Now we get into the area which is not the church but is the state. How the state should treat homosexuals is different from how the church should treat them. The state should make wise laws based on morality and enforce them. The state is an agent of law and its enforcement, not an agent of love (though there are times when the state, thankfully, practices mercy). For instance, we would make this differentiation in the area of murder. As members of the church, we would go into a prison where a convicted murderer is kept and try to give him the gospel and see his soul saved. However, the state should not be in the business of converting (that's spelled r-e-h-a-b-i-l-i-t-a-t-i-o-n) murderers, but should punish them. I, for one, vote for politicians who support the death penalty because I believe the state has a duty to take the life of one who takes the life of an innocent. I'm sure that illustration opens another can of worms, so don't miss the point. My duty as a Christian to a fellow believer and even to a non-believer who sins is different from the duty of the state.

Consequently, I am not in favor of giving marital status to gays. To do so, is for the state to tacitly endorse homosexuality which would result in and increase in the number of homosexuals in the US. Whenever a government endorses a behaviour, that behaviour is apt to increase. For instance, if they made bank robbery legal tomorrow, guess what?, lots of banks that would not be robbed otherwise would be robbed. Likewise, if the government recognizes gay marriage, it will increase exponentially. If we think children have been harmed by the pedophilia in the catholic church, wait til legalized gay marriage takes effect. So the action of government has a powerful effect for good or for evil on society. For a full development of this concept, I recommend you read George Will's Statecraft As Soulcraft.

 

Vermont has had a marriage law that allows same sex marriage for a full two years now. They have not reported any increase in people becoming homosexual because of it. However, I think you are right in one way (with your statement) if homosexuality was a choice (such as bankrobbery) then we can expect that there would have been an increase in homosexuality. Since there hasn't, it must mean that homosexuality is not a choice; either you are or you aren't.

Do you think you could "switch" and become gay if they past a law or even if the Bible did say it was ok? Could you kiss a man and be with him? I don't think so, not if you are heterosexual.

As I said, it has already happened and it hasn't changed anything except that homosexuals have the same rights as heterosexuals in Vermont.

All your fears have not been proven to be true in Vermont. It stands to reason, that it would not be any different on a national level either... (which it won't anytime soon since all the other States jumped into action and past laws that will prevent same sex marriages.)

 

Post it,
As far as I can see, this issue has exhausted itself; it's running itself in circles. The tally is in. Contrary to your belief, homosexuals WILL NOT have the same rights before a righteous God on judgement day! Gods word states that liars as well as homosexuals and those who teach others to do these sins will have their portion in the lake of fire.

1Co 6:9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9 as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men, for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;

Mat 18:6 But whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea.

PS..........Just for the record. The church I attend has it's doors wide open to the public. If you are a man or woman embracing an idea contrary to the writings of Holy writ, you will hear about it and most likely not remain with us long. But if it be the grace of our soverign God that ye repent, you may stay for the duration of your life as God wills.

In HIM,
Scott

[ May 15, 2002, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

We're back onto sodomy rights again, so after 7 pages I think its time to shut this one down.