Libertarian Free Will is an Extra-Biblical Commitment

Brian, yes, you understand me correctly. What I am saying is that when Adam and Eve were created, they were considered "very good" as God deemed all his creation in Gen 1:31. Therefore, they would have no inclination to sin. And if they did not have a free will to choose they could not sin as they would be limited in their choices by their sinless nature that they received from God himself. They were not born of sinful parents as we were, not that I believe we inherit a sinful nature from our parents. I just want to take that out of the argument.

Now, Archangel has said that Adam and Eve did have free will and this is what Calvinists believe. But they lost their free will after the fall. I personally do not see this in scripture, plus it does not make sense to me for God to plea with sinners to choose good over evil when they cannot possibly do so. I do believe we are all depraved and very sinful, but I believe we retained free will. I think even sinful man recognizes good, and can choose it if persuaded by the word of God. I do not think God forces a man to believe, but convinces or persuades. I do not believe a man can come to God without God's influence from the scriptures FIRST.

I'll let you get back.

 

This is the answer I've seen from several Calvinists, that God is sovereign and has the right to make one person believe, and make another not believe. The problem I have with this is that the scriptures clearly give the reasons God chooses to show mercy on one man and wrath on another.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

God clearly gives the reasons for showing his wrath to some men. God says he has revealed himself to all men so that none have excuse. These men know of God but glorify him not, are not thankful, are vain in their own imaginations, professing themselves to be wise, changed the glory of God into an image, they were unclean through the lusts of their own hearts, they changed God's truth into a lie, they worshipped the creature more than the Creator....

You can read for yourself.

I have heard Calvinists say God does all things for his own pleasure, but the scriptures say God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

In both these verses God says he has no pleasure that the wicked should die and desires they turn from sin and live. Therefore, it is God's will that all should live. If God determines if a man believes or not, then all would be saved. But all men are not saved, so therefore man must have his own free will and the ability to resist God's grace.

 

Keep reading.....remember the Bible's chapter and verse divisions were added later, and are not inspired...

Rom 2:1 Therefore(i.e. because of what He just said) thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Pauls ENTIRE ARGUMENT here, in chapter 1 and the beginning of Chapter 2, is that the reason judgment of others is excluded is because WE are just as bad. "Ungodliness and unrighteousness of men" is US (believers) to.

The entire point of the gospel, is that god saved some even though they were no less deserving of hell, out of His mercy. You are trying to change it to Him choosing some because they were not as bad..

Again, read on to Chapter 2, verse 1. Paul says we are ALL guilty of those things, so that could not possibly be God's criterion: no one would make it.

Go ahead. And don't stop where it's convenient next time.

Not so.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

God raised Pharaoh up, for the explicit purpose of destroying Him, and showing His wrath. God hardened Pharaoh's heart and WOULD NOT let him repent.

Psa 59:8 But you, O LORD, laugh at them; you hold all the nations in derision.

Psalm 2:4-9: “The Lord that sits in the heavens shall LAUGH [at rebellious men]: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall He speak unto them in His WRATH, and VEX THEM IN HIS SORE DISPLEASURE... [and Christ shall] break them with a rod of iron: Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

Pro 1:24 Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
Pro 1:25 because you have ignored all my counsel and would have none of my reproof,
Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when terror strikes you,
Pro 1:27 when terror strikes you like a storm and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you.

Please note that the verses above, about God laughing while destroying the wicked, according to Romans 1, applies equally to us, before Christ.

NOTHING IN US secured our salvation: God's mercy, through the giving of saving faith, is all that saved us. NONE of us, ALL of Him. Sola Deo Gloria!!

 

You missed the entire point. God has REASON to show his wrath on sinners. I completely understand I am a sinner as well, but because I have believed on Christ my sins are forgiven.

And God did not raise up Pharaoh to destroy him without a cause or reason. God knew beforehand that Pharaoh was an unbelieveably obstinate person and would not repent even when he had seen many miracles by God.

Exo 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

Exo 10:3 And Moses and Aaron came in unto Pharaoh, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before me? let my people go, that they may serve me.

Pharaoh is the great example of a person who loves their sin and will not repent no matter how much light God shows them. It would be hard to imagine the most hardened sinner who would not repent after seeing the amazing plagues God performed on Egypt before his very eyes. So Pharaoh was deserving of being destroyed.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Notice two words in this verse, "longsuffering" and "fitted". God was very longsuffering with Pharaoh. Pharaoh had every chance to repent. At one point he seemed very close and admitted his sin.

Exo 9:27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.
28 Intreat the LORD (for it is enough) that there be no more mighty thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no longer.

But even Moses knew the character of Pharaoh. He knew as soon as the plague was stopped Pharaoh would refuse to let the Israelites go.

Exo 9:29 And Moses said unto him, As soon as I am gone out of the city, I will spread abroad my hands unto the LORD; and the thunder shall cease, neither shall there be any more hail; that thou mayest know how that the earth is the LORD'S.
30 But as for thee and thy servants, I know that ye will not yet fear the LORD God.

And sure enough, as soon as God stopped the plague, Pharaoh went back on his word.

Exo 9:33 And Moses went out of the city from Pharaoh, and spread abroad his hands unto the LORD: and the thunders and hail ceased, and the rain was not poured upon the earth.
34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
35 And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.

So, you see here, the scriptures say Pharaoh sinned yet more and hardened his own heart.

If it was God's will that Pharaoh's heart be hardened, then it could not be a sin. The scriptures say God never tempts any man to sin.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

So God did not cause Pharaoh to harden his own heart, but God knew that Pharaoh would become more stubborn and obstinate with each plague.

And this can be seen in human experience. Often when you show a person that they are in error they will become very angry and obstinate. And the more you try to reason with them, the more stubborn and obstinate they become. This is what is meant when God said he would harden Pharaoh's heart. If God caused Pharaoh to sin (as the scriptures say he did), then God would be the author of sin.

So, in Romans 1, God is especially speaking of sinners who will not repent. Yes, we are all sinners, but many men will repent when the gospel is preached to them. But some men love their sin and hate God and will not repent.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

As I wrote before, Calvinists cannot give a reason why God chooses to show mercy on some, and wrath on others. But the scriptures clearly show that God has very good reasons to show his wrath on those fitted for destruction.

 

Brian

Yes, so far so good. Although I am not used to debating in this fashion, and am not knowledgeable about forms of argument as you are. But I think we are on the same page so far.

This is kind of fun. :tongue3:

 

I do not agree with this part of your argument.

This cannot be true, because the scriptures say God never tempts any man to sin.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

We know that it was a sin when Adam ate of the fruit of the tree. Therefore God could not have put this desire into his heart.

Therefore it follows logically that the desire that God put into Adam's heart was that he not eat the fruit of the tree. This is the only other option available.

But Adam did eat the fruit.

Therefore Adam has his own free will and can override the desires that God put in his heart. Adam has his own independent desires that he will obey over the desires God puts in his heart.

 

Yes, and there is no simple answer for this question. It will be interesting.

I will not be on the computer much till the weekend, I have to work another shift to cover for an employee who recently left. But I will be back when I can.

 

In order to keep confusion down you might want to define the term 'ordain' as this will soon become a point of contension if not a point of confusion soon enough for you both.

 

There are differing views on what the term 'ordain' entails with respect to theological constructs. It is much the same with term 'determine' (ex. God determines certain things).

I didn't think about it. I was commenting off of your post so I hit the quote button.

 

Hello again Brian,

Why not just define 'your' usage so that Winman can either agree or disagree and then give you his rendering. He 'might' have the same view you do but in order to keep confusion that might crop up to a minimum, just take a moment and explain.

Trust me, it will help as the conversation continues. I have debated enough to know, not only on here but with many over views, that unless certain things are properly understood in the beginning (or at necessary points in between) it leads to back tracking to find out where you guys lost understanding. This is one such place where such an occuance can usually happen.

 

No Problem :thumbs: