Liberty or Death?

Like most on here, I believe the bill is horrible. However, after reading it, I have to side with FAL on this one. People are spreading falsehoods about the bill, and are purposely remaining ignorant so that they can feel comfortable in their hatred of the POTUS. There is enough evil going on without having to make things up.

This clearly states that the purpose is to reduce the rate of growth in Medicare spending per capita. In other words, they don't want the cost per person growing too rapidly.

The three subsections under that tell how they are going to keep the rate of growth down:
1. Project the rate of growth
2. If the projection exceeds the target rate of growth, then submit a proposal on how to lower the cost
3. Congress decides to enact the proposal or not

Now, we get to:

This clearly states that the board can not even propose rationing. It even says that they cannot propose an increase in copay, or a decrease in benefits. In other words, their proposal for decreasing the rate of growth of the cost of medicare has to come from the government side, and can not hurt the individuals receiving the care.

So, now the truth is out there in plain English. I don't like the bill any less than anyone else on here. But we need to at least know what we're talking about if we're going to combat things like this. Saying things about the bill creating "death panels" is not only either ignorance or outright lies, but it lowers our credibility.

 

You know what happens so very often on this board is the unChristian behavior we see here. Making a declaration of someone's motives in this manner cannot be proven and is rude at best. Why can we not disagree without such vitrol? It serves no Christian purpose to make these accusations that are not, in fact, the only motivation possible. Trying to tear others down in this manner is contrary to scripture.

 

Obamacare’s Five Most Damaging Effects on Seniors

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/06/01/obamacares-five-most-damaging-effects-on-seniors/

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7MS...xt=C3995e6cUDOEgsToPDskJCV8f2fB8q64xMGPeW13Ou


Like most seniors, Ann Lorenz relies on Medicare as she copes with serious health care challenges, including Parkinson's Disease. Ann sees a number of doctors and depends on a variety of prescription drugs and therapies to stay independent. She worries that Obamacare threatens her access to doctors, treatment options and insurance plans -- and her neurologist shares her concerns.

Learn more about the effects of Obamacare at www.heritage.org/ImpactOfObamacare.

 

The 10 Terrible Provisions of Obamacare You May Not Have Heard Of

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/03/07...sions-of-obamacare-you-may-not-have-heard-of/

 

The President’s Medicare Plan: A Trojan Horse to Ration Health Care?

http://blog.heritage.org/2011/04/18...re-plan-a-trojan-horse-to-ration-health-care/

 

I wasn't trying to tear anyone down. I was making a statement that I will not retract. No, it's not the only motivation. But it is a motivation, and it is happening. I didn't say everyone, I said people are doing that. Which is a true statement.

You can see it in how the only answer most of the time is "Have you read the bill?" Well, I have read it. Not the entire 2700 pages, but the parts that people argue over. I've posted it with a clear explanation of how the bill does not set up "death panels"

Now, if someone were to argue that cutting the provider's payments will also cut accessibility, thus limiting clientele, etc, then that is another discussion that I haven't entered into. My point is that the bill does not allow "death panels".

 

Unfortunately, histrionics are what's defining the IPAB as a "death panel," because such a panel that enacts arbitrary limitations on access and level of care can, and arguably will, lead to a "death sentence" for some people.

We are not at the point of assisted suicide chambers such as in "Soylent Green," however.

 

Your are still spreading false information just like the world does. There is no such board! Friend post the place in the law that sets up this board you are caliming exists and says they do what you are falsely are claiming or stop dishonoring the Lord with these false accusations.

 

Don there is NO SUCH PANEL set up in this law! The health care bill does not have any such panel set up. I am totally against this law on constitutional grounds but when Chrisatians go out of their way to spread false information that is worse then this law.

 

What is that! :BangHead: That has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.

 

You should take a look at what Mandy posted. It appears that Obamacare does set up the IPAB.

 

Yes and nothing will be shown as there is no such provision. The sad thing is when people who claim to be Christians stoop the the tactics of the world and dishonor the Lord. This is why we are in this mess is because of people like this. This is not because of President Obama or the democrats. This is because the church has left its first love and joined the world and its tactics/practices and the Lord is turning from us. You people who are spreading these false accusations need to stop or present the section of the law you claim sets up these death panels.

 

In a sense, FAL is correct: the IPAB does not exist. Currently.

But sections 3403 and 10320 establish this board, and gives it authority to bypass Congress. Its primary responsibility is to reduce costs. Such reductions will have to be accomplished through rationing. As I previously stated, histrionics refers to such rationing as determining who receives care that would prolong life; and thus, "death boards."

Not my particular choice of words; but Obamacare does set up such a board, and there is a lot of discussion (non-Christian, I might add) against it.

 

Then post the part of the law that proves it.
.
The Independent Payment Advisory Board, or IPAB, is a fifteen-member United States Government agency created in 2010 by sections 3403 and 10320 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which has the explicit task of achieving specified savings in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Payment_Advisory_Board

 

And you believe that? :laugh:

 

No, I know that is what the law states. You and some others have been spreading false claims about what is in the law which may I point point is totally against the Lord.
It would be different if you were stating that there is some possible potential to wrong doing in the limiting care it would be accurate, but that is not what is happening. You and some others are purposely spreading false claims, which totally goes against anything the Lord stands for.

 

The Advisory Board exists. Established.

The panel gets to make recommendations in order to control/cut costs. Established.

Because RATIONING is not defined in the law, there is the potential for the board to essentially be a death panel making choices to deny certain levels of care for people in certain stages of a sickness. Established.



So what's left to prove.

 

From the same Wikipedia article:
Other "savings would have to be found in private Medicare Advantage plans, Medicare’s Part D prescription-drug program, or spending on skilled-nursing facilities, home-based health care, dialysis, durable medical equipment, ambulance services, and services of ambulatory surgical centers".

In other words, the IPAB is not allowed to reduce care under the Affordable Care Act; but can make such reductions to programs not included in the ACA; i.e., thereby "limiting care."

 

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