Liberty! The Christian, wine and cigars?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Scott_Bushey, Apr 4, 2002.

  1. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey
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    Hey fellow theologs,
    I am gonna throw this one out there...........It is very possible that this is an exhausted topic, but if not, here she goes.

    How many believe that it is unscriptural
    to preach *abstinence*? I have, in previous months been in a hearty discussion outside of this forum on the topic. Piper's church is abstinent, so is MacArthurs.

    What sayeth thee?

    In HIM,
    Scott Bushey
     
  2. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
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    I think we've gone down the smoking/drinking road several times (I'm sure Clint will supply the links).

    On a different note, who are Piper and MacArthur?

    Joshua
     
  3. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey
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    Joshua,
    ok, so..............you don't *appreciate* John Piper or John MacArthur?

    In HIS grace,
    Scott Bushey
     
  4. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
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    I don't know if I appreciate them or not. Who are they?

    Joshua
     
  5. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey
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    Well Joshua,
    Dr John MacArthur is the pastor of Grace Community Church in Los Angeles, Ca. He is the proprietor of the radio broadcast ministry called, "Grace to You". Maybe you have heard of one of his elders, Phil Johnson? His web page is
    The Spurgeon Archives. John Piper is the pastor of Bethlehem Baptist church in Minneapolis, Minnesota. His web page is www.desiringgod.org

    You haven't heard of them huh???

    ok Joshua........ [​IMG]

    In HIM,
    Scott Bushey
     
  6. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
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    Spurgeon I've heard of (and read excerpts from), but the rest are new to me. I think I've seen MacArthur's name discussed on the Board though.

    I should warn you that I come from the urban, liberal, liturgical vein of baptist life. One of the things that I've learned on this board is that it's an entirely different world from that of Independent Fundamental Baptists. Not only do we read different people, we haven't even heard of the folks that the other group reads. On the "10 favorite preachers" thread, I named mostly well-published preachers who had done the Beecher lectures at Yale. No one here had ever heard of them - and likewise me with the people they named.

    Joshua
     
  7. russell55

    russell55
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    I assume you are talking about abstaining from any alchohol or pipe/cigar, right?

    If someone is preaching that drinking any alcohol or occasionally smoking a pipe or cigar is a sin, then they are going beyond what scripture tells us. If someone is simply preaching that they believe it is unwise, or asking that members of a church abstain so they won't be a stumbling block, then it is not necessarily unscriptural....

    My personal opinion is that this issue is something better left to the conscience of the individual believer, since there is no prohibition in scripture.
     
  8. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey
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    Hi Russell,
    You write:
    "If someone is simply preaching that they believe it is unwise, or asking that members of a church abstain so they won't be a stumbling block, then it is not necessarily unscriptural...."

    Can you expound a little on what you consider is a *stumbling block* (scripturally and literally speaking). Also, how you believe that abstaining from these liberties will keep someone from being negatively affected by them?

    In HIM,
    Scott Bushey
     
  9. russell55

    russell55
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    &lt;i&gt;Can you expound a little on what you consider is a *stumbling block* (scripturally and literally speaking). Also, how you believe that abstaining from these liberties will keep someone from being negatively affected by them?&lt;/i&gt;

    My point was simply that since scripture does suggest that some things might be avoided in some situations in order to keep from being a stumbling block, a pastor could perhaps make a defense of abstinence that is not "unscriptural" based on that, although my own personal opinion is that calling for abstinance based on that would be stretching things way beyond what Paul intended.

    I personally would apply the stumbling block thing this way: If I knew that someone had ever been a problem drinker, I probably wouldn't invite them over and serve wine with dinner, even though wine is something I feel free to enjoy on a moderate and occasional basis.

    Does that explain what I meant, or just muddy the waters?
     
  10. A.J.Armitage

    A.J.Armitage
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    Drinking, smoking, and dancing are about the only things liberals get right. And let me say something really controversial: using wine like Jesus said and not grape juice is something Catholics get right and we don't. Let me note that this is relatively recent: the men who wrote the London Confession used wine, just like Jesus told them to.
     
  11. HankD

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  12. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
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    Christians. [​IMG]
     
  13. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
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    I love both men, but on this issue they are wrong.

    Matthew 15:10-11 (ESV)
    And he called the people to him and said to them, "Hear and understand: [11] it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person."
     
  14. Molly

    Molly
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    I think in the context of the teachings of the bible,it would be wise to discourage it,it is worldiness and the culture we live in is so okay with everything,we should be set apart on thses issues and remeber that our bodies are a temple of the HS,therefore,we would not want to cause harm if we knew something would. I believe that the dangers of those things are to us and possibly others,why would it be okay for a christian....and I see it as foolishness and bad morals...Proverbs speaks to those issues. It is wisdom and applying biblical principles that allows me to not like those things and yes,I believe it hurts Christians influence in this world. Just my thoughts.

    I happen to trust and respect those men's teachings very much,esp MacArthur's. [​IMG]
     
  15. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Come on Chris, is Jesus advocating putting all kinds of stuff in through your mouth? Should we advocate that? Be careful and think through your answer. I trust you will come to a position that would limit some things based on other passages. That is being done with alchohol.
     
  16. wordsworth

    wordsworth
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    Scott:

    I think this is one of those issues that Jesus would reply the same way He replied when the disciples asked Him about being eunichs. "The one who can accept this should accept it." Subsequently, I don't think it is unbiblical for a body to corporately agree to certain restrictions among their church family. Romans 14:5, let each man be persuaded in his own mind to do whatever they do unto Christ. We must be careful to NEVER judge our brother as off base simply because they practice abstinence-- if they are in Christ this does not make them free or bound.

    In Christ
     
  17. HankD

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    Dear brethren,

    Just another sub-issue of this thread...

    Christians think nothing of ingesting some of the most toxic substances ever made because a physician prescribed it. Yet wine, which is recommended in the NT for what ails you, is and was an anathema according to some.

    Luke 7:
    33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
    34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
     
  18. Molly

    Molly
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    If there is something that we aware of ,we try to abstain from it,if it is harmful to us...but that isn't the entire point,look at how the culture we live in abuses these social sins...it is a worldy self centered goal of feeling good,fitting in with a group,living extravagantly,being filled with something that can alter our sound judgement,or cause other sins,from lack of control. It is not wise or godly.

    And besides,the *wine* of biblical days was a watered down(mainly water,in fact) fermented fruit juice,nothing like the alcoholic beverages in liqour stores and restaurants today. There is little to compare between the 2.

    "Do not be drunk with wine,but be filled with the spirit."
     
  19. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey
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    Molly,
    Keep yer head low :rolleyes: .........*Incoming*.
    In HIM,
    Scott
     
  20. Mike McK

    Mike McK
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    Molly, it's already been shown in other threads that the wine in the Bible was wine and not grapejuice.

    Mike
     

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