Featured LIberty University Lifts Hands and Praises God!

Excellent post :thumbs:

 

Can't disagree with your points there. I know there are a number of Christian songs available, many of which would never be played in a worship service because there are Christian songs that don't belong. However, to automatically dismiss an entire genre of music just because of what someone "thinks" it does to people, or because it mirror's a secular style or sound IMO is problematic in itself.

Personally, I'd rather listen/play/sing songs that have uplifting lyrics these days than to listen/play/sing most of the music I listened to/played/sang even ten years ago.

One example is the band Skillet...a hard rock Christian group. I have taken a couple of their albums and read through the lyrics of many of the songs, and they don't specifically use God or Jesus in some songs, but the context of the song is pushed toward God. I would not consider using their music in our gatherings, but I enjoy their sound (some of it at least) and listen to them in the car/truck at times. I'd rather listen to a song from Skillet these days than to put in a CD of say Boston or Van Halen or any of the rock groups I listened to years ago, mainly because I know I'm not going to hear any lyrics that are problematic to my walk with Christ.

One instance for thought: My wife and I went on vacation a few weeks ago, and in our absence a few of our members did some "special music" before the worship service started. The music was sort of bluegrass style, some well known and familiar songs that a number of our older members just love, and there were many comments made about it when we returned the next week. Some were "Oh we need to have that kind of music more often" and some were "I felt like I was in a barn raisin' hoe down", which shows that regardless of the style of music we play, there are going to be members in our churches who are going to like it, and those who are not. No one said anything about the songs themselves (although one song in particular I would not have agreed to play in a worship service), but more so the style of music that was played.

I believe if we stripped down all the arguments for and against, more than not it would be the "style" of music more so than the song itself. I think as you said in your post, if the song is pointing our church toward Christ, and praising His name, and moving our congregation to lift their voices and hearts to God, then I'm all for it. In the presentation if there is any "me first" attitudes those should be addressed and discussed.

 

Yep, we're on the same page. It's been my experience that most people that disagree with CCM it simply comes down to musical taste and their own traditions. A lot of times they like to pass judgment and put God into a box with "There is no way that music is glorifying to God! I just know it!"

CCM is my 'go to' music to listen to but I still listen to the secular stuff now and again.

 

About CCM and "Dancing"

Michael,
About CCM....it is being embraced today not only by people in the Baptist denominational "camp" but also by the majority of the compromised and doctrinally unscriptural Charismatic crowd as well. From everything I've been able to determine it is also the musical vehicle most widely accepted and used in many of the Catholic youth functions as well. I will admit that there are a few reasonably good individual songs (that's one of the "hooks" found in the bait)that can be found but by and large I have to reject the genre just on the grounds that I believe the devil is using it as a very seductive "vehicle of compromise" to lure believers into an unbiblical type of unification that will glue the end-time One World Church together.Music is an extremely powerful force and tool. We have to remember that our "foe" is well capable of signs and lying wonders and presents himself as an "angel of light". CCM at least contributes to the break down many of those barriers that should RIGHTLY and BIBLICALLY divide us.
Now...as to dancing..well...It is obvious that a short trip through any good Bible concordance will show that there is scriptural "dancing" of some sort found in the Bible. There is also wicked dancing found there too(ref.Herodias seductive dancing before Herod in Mark 6:22) I don't personally know what kind of dancing David did before the Lord (2 Sam.6:14) but I feel certain that it was NOT the seductive and sensual kind that is engaged in at the local bar or honky-tonk (and I know from personal past experience) or on "Dancing With The Stars". I have seen some of the contemporary "Interpretive Dance" done by youth groups and frankly it did nothing for me. On occasion I actually had to avert my eyes from some of the movements the young ladies in the group were doing because they were NOT dressed in modest or loose-fitting clothes and some of the movements had the potential to draw attention to themselves (whether they intended it or not...and I'm sure they did NOT) in an immodest way. I may be old but I'm not dead and I'm sure the young men in the crowd (you know..the ones with the raging testosterone) would not have much "resistance" to the "lust of the flesh" and the "lust of the eyes" that the Bible so clearly admonishes us to resist. All that said, In this sex-saturated generation we are currently in...I think the value of such things in the church is limited at best...and possibly a spiritual "minefield" at the worst. I say that we'd be better served to leave it as a pleasant Old Testament Biblical memory since in our generation it could be subject to much perversion. I'll look forward to "dancing" before the Lord in His Kingdom when we'll be able to do it with pure hearts and no shadow of sin.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

Greg,

If we base what we do or don't do, or utilize or don't utilize in our Christian life and/or corporate gatherings based on what the devil uses as "vehicles of compromise", then should we not throw scripture out as well?

Gen. 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtile than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made . And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said , Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Doesn't the devil use scripture to try and twist and lure people away from God? Would you consider that the devil has twisted scripture in mans minds for generations, thus that could be one of the reasons we have so many denominations in the world instead of one unified church for Christ's glory?

Now I'm not suggesting that we stop reading scripture, please don't read that into what I wrote. What I am suggesting is that the devil is going to use ANY and EVERY possibility that he can to move anyone away from God, including music yes, but that doesn't mean that we should reject music because the devil uses it as a tool. God uses music as a tool as well, wouldn't you agree? If a person is so entrenched in a certain musical lifestyle, say hard rock and that is all that he/she listens to, would God not use someone who is a Christian and listens/plays/sings hard rock music with Christian/uplifting lyrics to get a foot hold in the un saved persons life, and use that as a tool for witnessing and drawing that person to God?

I am well aware that the devil is well capable of the things you listed, but I am also well aware that God is stronger than the devil, and God uses whatever He will use for His will and to further His kingdom. I really don't think we can establish a scriptural basis for rejecting a genre of music just because it is also popular in the secular world, and I don't believe we should reject something just because it happens that the devil uses it as a tool because he uses so many things as tools. Our God is stronger, our God is greater.

Did Paul not say that he became as those he witnessed to? To Jews he became as under the law, to Gentiles as those without the law, etc?


While I wasn't intending to interject dancing as a full discussion point, you did touch on a couple of things. In your post you made these statements;


"it (interpretive dancing) did nothing for me"

"I think the value of such things in the church is limited at best"

"I say that we'd be better served to leave it as ....."


So, these things did/do nothing for you; well, maybe they weren't intended to do anything to/for you? Maybe those included in the interpretive dance were intending to dance before God and to dance as their offering to Him.


Just as in the CCM debate, it seems more than anything that it becomes a personal opinion, i.e. "I think" "I got nothing from it", etc. Now with that said, in any corporate gathering, if the worship pastor/minister of music/ song leader person is not considering the entire congregation when planning a service, then that is something that should be addressed. As has been stated and agreed upon earlier, the music that is presented to a congregation should have one unifying trait, it should present Christ to the people and extol the glory of God.


Just because we don't personally agree with every song selection doesn't necessarily mean that the song selected isn't doing just that.

Now I'm not dismissing your thoughts at all Greg, I respect your opinion and I'm not at all trying to persuade you otherwise, I'm just responding to your thoughts with thoughts of my own. I don't see the inherit dangers of CCM that others do; is that something wrong with me? Maybe...maybe not. I don't sing a CCM song and automatically start thinking sinful thoughts, nor has years of singing CCM/praise music lessened or whittled away my doctrinal stances (at least I don't think it has, and my pastor hasn't counseled me on any problems in the last eight years, so I think it's safe for the time being).


You said that music is an extremely powerful force and tool. I agree, and my statement would be this;


I want to use that extremely and powerful tool to praise the name of Jesus, to let God's word through music touch as many ears as possible, and in using genre's of music that different people listen to, I believe the ability is there to get God's word to sink into their minds, to work into their hearts (it's been said that people will forget the majority of a sermon within 1 hour of the church service ending, but they will remember God's word via a song or two for a majority of the week, because of the melody and harmony used to present the song) and to make available a path for someone to be drawn to God and come into the saving grace that God has available for them.

 

Greg, this is a DEBATE site.

There is a fellowship site for those who do not wish to have their ideas critiqued.

Perhaps, brother, and I mean that sincerely, perhaps you ought to stay there.

 

Brother Luke, if I understand correctly, this forum is an assembly of believers, an assembly of those who profess to be Baptist. Thus, a fellowship of those who share a common basic belief in our Saviour, regardless of the various "flavors" of "Baptist". In essence, this is a "church" without 4 physical walls, as it is an assembly of believers.

Sometimes there are threads discussing differences of opinions that lead to church splits and the negatives associated with disagreement driving people apart when they should be united.

I don't know about other churches. In my physical church I do know the condemnation that would be heaped on a member (not a congregation vote, not a decision by pastor and deacons) who "invites" another member to go elsewhere.

BTW............

Debate:

What is this forum? A place for a fighting contest and strife or a place to strive to maintain by reasoning?

 

Hi Greg,

Unlike Woody, I AM TRYING TO CONVINCE YOU OTHERWISE!!!:laugh:


The problem is this: Many churches of various stripes have also gone to using crosses, pews, microphones...Yet these things would be accused of being a "vehicle of compromise." To truly be compromising, one must actually be sinning. Using playing cards cannot be called a "vehicle of compromise" because it might lead to gambling. Brushing your teeth cannot be called a "vehicle of compromise" because it might make one become vain about their appearance and smell to others.

In order to call something true "compromise", the thing itself must be shown to be sinful. Telling a white lie, stealing a candy bar, calling your wife an idiot...THOSE ARE COMPROMISE, because not only can those lead to more and greater sin...they are also sin in themselves.

Music with drums, or guitars, or a beat on 2 & 4, is not addressed as sin in scriptures...in fact loud music with clanging cymbals is commended and commanded.

 

Amen. We are supposed to sing NEW songs, LOUDLY. So those of you that like the old hymns are being disobedient. <just kidding>

Actual verse is here:

Psalm 33:3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.

 

Okay...Here's My Answer(s)

OK guys...here is my answers to each of you in order of appearance:

Luke...we'll just have to agree to disagree and stay in our respective "corners" for a while. I mean you no ill-will...just don't like the occasional tone of some of your arguments and don't want to spar with you.

OldTimer...I appreciate and admire your support (as I interpreted it to be) and the sense of grace and "gravity" that you bring to the table. I need MORE of those qualities in my own life!

12Strings, InTheLight and (you too Woody)...if you like the CCM stuff that is between you and the Lord and the folks you fellowship with in person. I mean none of you any "malice". My resistance to this genre of music is based on the fact that I came out of a deep involvement with and love for classic and country rock and even some Heavy metal stuff as well as pop and country music to some degree. I'm afraid I can still be "tempted" by it and I don't want to be. Anything that borrows (in style and type) from those kind of genres make me uncomfortable in a church setting (or anywhere else) because they can (and have) "tripped" memories in me that I'd just as soon forget. Those types of music "set the tone" for a lot of sin in my life. The ONLY kinds of music I am totally comfortable with are types of Christian music that can't be confused with anything else but "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs"(Col.3:16). The right kinds of music "set the tone" for good and sweet worship and fellowship with God...in my opinion and experience. In my own life, I have to be the "judge" of that. I don't intend to be anybody elses "judge of that" but I know that in sharing my opinions on this topic I might be construed as such. If I have offended anyone than I formally apologize.

But...I still think I'm right!:smilewinkgrin:

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

Greg,

Give me an example or two please of "spiritual songs"? I think we can all agree to a point on hymns, and some will agree on the psalms, although it's varied in how the psalms are set to music, so lets focus on spiritual songs for a bit.

Give me some titles/artists of spiritual songs that you listen to; I'd like to get a better understanding of what you consider them to be please?

michael

 

Several times members have mentioned wanting a specific song to discuss. Since I prefer the hymns sung in my youth, I haven't kept up with the "who's who" in the world of CCM. And, I've enjoyed some of the "new" music presented in specials by the choir and individuals.

That said, I went hunting for a little more information.

Came across this link with "25 SONGS THAT CHANGED THE WAY WE WORSHIP" from
http://www.ccmmagazine.com/article/25-songs-that-changed-the-way-we-worship/ CCM Magazine

The Story Behind The Songs (Chose the first one listed)

Ephesians 1: KJB
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Next:

Video of Paul discussing & performing this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA9Tg2CK6ZA

Matthew 6: KJB
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Care to discuss this one in light of the references given?

 

One more from the list linked above.

I Exalt Thee -Chris Quilala / Jesus Culture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-lY8VQpSTY

Question here: Could this be sung, as sung in the video, without music and still receive the same response from the "congregation"?

In my layman's opinion, any vocals considered to the hymns of worship shouldn't need musical instruments of any kind.

For example: The Old Rugged Cross carries the same message whether it's sung by a hundred member choir with full orchestra or 2-3 folks standing in the middle of a tobacco field at the end of the day.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arPrM8RCiyo

Found another arrangement of I Exalt Thee;

and you asked if the song could be sung without music?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ_Jpqh8q6I

I think that answers the question, so yes "I Exalt Thee" would be a great song to sing either acapella or with minimal instruments, or a full band/orchestra.
I would say this could be sung with 2-3 folks in the middle of a tobacco field with no problem! :thumbs:

 

Sure! Are you disagreeing that God would not bring a song to a songwriters heart from experiences he/she has had in their lives, or from statements made that they wrote down in their journals?
As a novice songwriter I always enjoy reading/listening to other songwriters explain how/where/when etc. they get their inspiration for the songs they write. I used to write songs for a country/rock group I fronted, but these days I would like to write songs to glorify God and praise Him, so getting ideas/tips from other songwriters to me is indeed a good thing.

I guess to discuss further I would need to know just what your disagreement is from what Paul Baloche wrote or discussed in the video?

 

Uhmmm.......... interesting. Please go back and read my post. Did I state any personal disagreement? For this post I just chose the first song on the referenced link for discussion.

Lyrics:
Open the eyes of my heart Lord,
Open the eyes of my heart,
I want to see You. I want to see You. (2x)

To see You high and lifted up,
Shining in the light of Your glory.
Pour out Your power and love,
As we sing holy, holy, holy.

Holy, holy holy. Holy, holy, holy.
Holy, holy, holy, I want to see You. (2x)

According to PB, it's based on Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Perhaps the disagreement that you read into my post, was actually from a Higher Authority's view on "vain repetitions".

Now for my personal opinion. :flower:

When the Holy Spirit enters the heart of a born again believer our "eyes" are opened. We have His assurance that we will see Him. Why do we pray for what we already have? Asking over and over again?

The verses surrounding 1:18 give more of the context regarding wisdom and understanding. Proverbs 2:3-6 gives us the assurance of His wisdom and understanding, as well.

 

My apologies in misunderstanding your statement.

Agreed that our eyes are opened, but do they always stay opened? Can we not ask God to open our eyes to help understand or grasp more of His majesty? What about a non believer listening to a song like this?

For a seasoned, mature believer who is continually faithful this song may be elementary to them; but what about someone who is spiritually immature or has gotten away from a daily fellowship with Christ?

Just throwing out ideas.

 

Again, interesting. As you didn't answer my question.

And, I can't resist asking. Have you ever sung the Old Rugged Cross in the middle of a tobacco field? Been there, done that.

Compare if you will..................

For Thou O Lord art high above all the earth
Thou art exalted far above all gods
For Thou O Lord art high above all the earth
Thou art exalted far above all gods

I exalt Thee, I exalt Thee
I exalt Thee O Lord
I exalt Thee, I exalt Thee
I exalt Thee O Lord



1. On a hill far away stood an old rugged cross,
the emblem of suffering and shame;
and I love that old cross where the dearest and best
for a world of lost sinners was slain.
Refrain:
So I'll cherish the old rugged cross,
till my trophies at last I lay down;
I will cling to the old rugged cross,
and exchange it some day for a crown.

2. O that old rugged cross, so despised by the world,
has a wondrous attraction for me;
for the dear Lamb of God left his glory above
to bear it to dark Calvary.
(Refrain)

3. In that old rugged cross, stained with blood so divine,
a wondrous beauty I see,
for 'twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died,
to pardon and sanctify me.
(Refrain)

4. To that old rugged cross I will ever be true,
its shame and reproach gladly bear;
then he'll call me some day to my home far away,
where his glory forever I'll share.
(Refrain)

http://www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh504.sht

 

Well sir, it's kind of difficult to answer the question as you asked. In order to find out we would need to get that group, and that congregation assembled, and have them sing it without instrumentation, and see how the congregation would respond. I don't know the answer to that without seeing it done. To give an opinion either way would be pure speculation.

I don't think I have ever been in the middle of a tobacco field, so I would have to say no. I have however, sang "How Great Thou Art" in center field of a baseball park on a very stormy night in 1986... and I've sang The Heart of Worship driving on a highway through a bean field before...would those be similar?

You're not gonna get any arguments from me concerning either song. The Old Rugged Cross has been a favorite hymn from my youth, and remains to be one of my favorites!

 

Back in the 90's in my community a sovereign grace preacher came to hold some meetings for a pastor and his church that were beginning to see the doctrines of grace. There were a lot of Arminians in the congregation and someone ask for the song Old Rugged Cross to be song, which they did sing it. When the sovereign grace preacher stepped up to the pulpit the first statement he made was, If you cling to a cross you will go to hell. He went on to explain, it's the man on the cross you cling too. The previous night he had made a negative comment on the old fashion altar that was in the church so on the third night the Arminian crowd didn't come back, they said, the preacher throwed the altar out on Monday night and the old rugged cross out on Tuesday night and we won't be back.