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Featured Lies About John Calvin Refuted

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Rippon, May 13, 2013.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    You said it a mere 14 months ago.

    You are mad.
     
  2. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    You said Reformeres and church men.

    No,I said that Reformers and church men did not criticize him for his persecutions. Those were the words you used in your initial challenge.


    See above.



    You are in another world. What you are now claiming has nothing to do with your original claims.
     
    #22 Rippon, May 17, 2013
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  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    No,not at all. I specifically made this thread to address lies and slander made against the person of John Calvin.
     
  4. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    No,I am not aware of that. Please furnish some proof.

    You are entitled to call him a 'churchman" if you wish. But by the standard meaning of the term he certainly doesn't qualify. Are Roman Catholics churchmen?

    Why yes,I do.
    Did you never stop to question why McGrath doesnt' say that it was common IN GENEVA??

    Wrong.
    Wrong again.
     
  5. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    From McGrath's book :A Life of John Calvin.

    "Calvin was thus denied access to the city's decision-making machinery. He could not vote;he could not stand for office...His influence over Geneva was exercised indirectly,through preaching,consultation and other forms of legitimate suasion.Despite his ability to influence through his moral authority,he had no civic jurisdiction,no right,to coerce others to act as he wished. Calvin would and did urge,cajole and plead;he could not,however,command.
    The image of Calvin as the 'dictator of Geneva' bears no relation to the known facts of history...The city council had no intention of surrendering its hard-won rights and privileges to anyone,let alone one of its employees --a foreighner devoid of voting rights,whom they could dismiss and expel from the city as they pleased...Throughout,the city council retained its authority in civic matters. That Calvin's authority in civic matters was purely personal and moral in character was demonstrated by the difficulties his successors faced after his death." (page 109)
     
  6. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    None of my concerns in the op have been answered by the accusers. Step up to the plate please.
     
  7. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Yes,I indeed said so. And you STILL have not produced any evidence whatsoever to support your bogus claim.

    Please tell me about Luther in particular. butI am still interested in the "many."
     
  8. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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    In your OP, you claimed that you had "poured over" historians, and of them that you quoted was Phillip Schaaf. That is why I posted what HE said about it, because Schaaf gave quite a lengthy list of atrocities that were committed under Calvin.

    Thus the fact that you ignore the evidence even from those you claimed to have relied on to prove that accusations against Calvin didn't occur proves that you are simply unwilling to accept the overwhelming historical evidence that shows that Calvin had a violent unscriptural attitude in practice against those who disagreed with him.
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    In my book :John Calvin:Man of the Millennium are some extracts.

    Theodore Beza:"What accusations will not some men bring against him? But no refutation of them is wanting tpo those persons who knew him while he lived,and they will want none among his posterity with men of judgment who shall collect his character from his writings.

    Having given with good faith the history of his life and of his death,after sixteen years' observation of him I feel myself warranted to declare that in him was proposed to all men an illustrious example of the life and death of a Christian;so that it will be found as difficult to emulate as it is easy to calumniate him.' (129)
     
  10. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    "Committed under Calvin"? No, Calvin didn't have the authority to arrest,torture or execute anybody. Those were decisions of the Council and of the Council of 200. Calvin or the church consistory did not have the civil power to do what you and others constantly claim.

    The Great Christian Revolution by Otto Scott says :"Calvin never ruled Geneva. The city was not a totalitarian society,but a Rebublic,with elections and dissent. Calvin held no civil office,could neither arrest nor punish any citizen,appoint or dismiss any official. To argure that his eloquence and logic constituted tyranny is to invent a new standard." (p.57)
     
  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    A Life of John Calvin by Alister E. McGrath :"The rigid restrictions on voting rights in sixteenth-century Geneva reflected widespread anxieties within the city over the possible influence of foreigners upon its affairs. By restricting citizenship,with its full rights to vote and hold office,to certain native-born rsidents,the council had effectively forestalled the ambitions of any foreigner to exercise political influence within the city.

    Calvin was thus denied access to the city's decision-making machinery. He could not vote;he could not stand for public office. From 1541-1559,his status within the city was that of habitant...His influence over Geneva was exercised indirectly,through preaching,consultation and other forms of legitimate suasion. Despite his ability to influence through his moral authority,he had no civic jurisdiction,no right,to coerce others to act as he wished. Calvin could and did urge,cajole and plead;he could not,however,command." (109)
     
  12. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    And for all this talk of Calvin being a dictator,monster etc...why did Europeans flock there? Because it was considered a safe haven from religious persecution by Protestant refugees.

    In 1550 the popualtion was 13,000 in Geneva. By 1560,it was 21,400 per McGraths research.

    And let me add something else. For centuries Calvin has been linked with Servetus' death. Why,if he is somehow responsible for upwards of nearly a hundred or so more was the Spanish madman's state execution so singular? Why hasn't Calvin been painted as evil for the hundred or so you have given him responsibilty for instead of the one?
     
  13. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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    First of all, it was Calvin's theocracy. Even if he had no involvement personally, the constitutions were all his making, so he is still responsible for the policies that permitted the execution of heretics. The death of those who did not adhere to their doctrines would have been a foreseeable result of the implentations of their laws. You can not create an avalanche and then claim exclusion under respondeat superior

    Nevertheless, this argument defies all of the documented evidence about John Calvin's own comments, not only toward how the government operated against heretics in general, but specifically toward Servetus. No revisionist attempts can wipe away the stigma of what Calvin created for himself. Even if Calvin did not have the authority to issue orders, that does not mean that others still did not follow his influence and obey his wishes regardless of whether he had the authority to give them or not. The matter is not a question of authority, it is whether Calvin had anything to do whatsoever in any manner, authority or not, in causing the death of Servetus, and the abuse of those consider heretics, and history says that he did.

    Yet again, it is difficult to accept your revisionist attempts when evidence was provided that you were wrong about Schaaf.

    This is like watching the explanation of Benghazi!
     
    #33 DrJamesAch, May 17, 2013
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  14. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    #34 HeirofSalvation, May 18, 2013
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  15. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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  16. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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  17. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I agree. Commense reading Calvin's works!
     
  18. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    And the lenghths you have gone to besmirch your fictional Calvin. You express hatred of Calvin and of myself every chance you get even though you contradict yourself at every turn. You said you wern't going to speak of the subject of Calvin's character again. (You said that several times.) You said you would never address Rippon again! With great ease you break your word.

    You have yet to support your contention that Calvin was "a liar and a bearer of false witness."

    With absolutely no thread of truth you claim that Calvin "never truly broke away from the Catholic church."

    With no proof whatsoever you claim that Calvin participated "in the persecution of the local,autonmous [sic]churches of the day."

    And there are countless other lies about Calvin as well as your evident hatred pouring out in your posts.

    You said that the mere mention of his name makes your blood boil. That's a sin.

    You said that the subject harms your inner self. Why not yield to more edifying subjects then instead of letting your flesh rule you?
     
    #38 Rippon, May 18, 2013
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  19. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    But God. (I like that biblical phrase.)But God put John Calvin to do what he did in his leadership capacity in Geneva. Calvin did not want to be in a position of authority in Geneva the first time and certainly not the second time when he was pleaded with to return.
     
  20. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    No one intends to answer you any further....Good day to you sir.
     
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