Life experiences and mental disorders?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Nov 13, 2005.

  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    I will keep the identity of the following person a secret for a time (if you know who it is, please don't post it right now):

    The following person was born in a small village to a family of sheep herders. His father died or disappeared five months before he was born. His mother was a prostitute. not long after his father died, his 12 year old brother died of cancer. His mother was so severely depressed that in the final months of her pregnancy, she tried to abort him and kill herself. When he was born, his mother refused to care for him. As an infant, he was sent to live with his maternal uncle until he was three. His mother remarried and his step father was abusive to him (it is even reported in one biography that his father would beat him with a lead pipe). His father forced him to steal livestock for resale, and would not allow him to attend school. When he was 10 years old, he was gang raped by a band of homosexuals. Around 10 years old, he fled his family to once again live with his uncle.

    This man became a man of prominence, but one of the worst mass murderers in history. Based on what you know about his history and childhood, would you say that there is a high likelihood that what he endured in childhood may have caused some mental illness (possibly PTSD or some such mental ailment) and caused him to be mentally deranged when he murdered all those people? Would you, further, say that it would therefore, be unjust to execute him for his crimes because of his mental illness, or would you, as I would say, state that it doesn't matter and he should still be held accountable for his actions anyway?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
  3. Bunyon

    Bunyon
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Having a mental illness in which your reality is altered and your world, for the most part, is an illusion, is different than having an emotional disturbance or being filled with hate, which is the categorie that this fellow probably falls into. I think it is dangerous to assume that a person would be mentally deranged simply because he was abused.
     
  4. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    well, in spite of the possibility of being called a "mouthy crow" again for posting something else..... :D .......I'd say there are people who have very traumatic experiences in their childhood and grow up to never murder anyone else. I think if there was evidence that ALL who had horrible childhoods grew up to be mass murderers, or other type of heinous criminal, I might see putting them in an institution instead.

    But otherwise, I think Id agree with ya, Joseph.
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mouthy Crow?

    That's a new one for me. Who called you that? Are there any anti-death penalty folks who would like to chime in here?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  6. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    it wasn't in this thread...sorry.

    I was trying to have fun with it. [​IMG]

    Im not against the death penalty though, so I guess I can't help ya on that score.
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bapmom,

    I certainly welcome your opinions here as well. I am, however, trying to get a persepctive from all views on this thread. I will reveal this person's name after a while when we get some more responses. It, personally, seems to me that anyone who would go through the things this person endured and survived through in the first 10 years of his life, would certainly be severely traumitized, mentally deranged, and have a high likelihood of suffering from psychosis. That is just my opinion.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  8. Bunyon

    Bunyon
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    But do you have any reason to think he heard voices that he truely thought was the devil? Do you think his world was an illusion? Or was he just a mad angery person with one webed hand who tried and failed to be a priest and yelled his anger at God on his death bed. Sorry. That is my hint at who I think it is.

    If it is who I think it is, I would say if you have enough mental stability to be the leader of a nation, you have enought mental stabiltiy to be held accountable.
     
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you telling me that if someone raises their son, never knowing half their real family, being phyisically and sexually assaulted for the first 10 years of their life, and utterly rejected by his own mother for the first three years of his life, that this is not going to do something to his mental psyche? If a child is raised in an environment of hate, rejection, and physical and sexual assaults, you think they are going to figure out love for God and their fellow man on their own? Tell me what you truly think the likelihood of this is. BTW, the man was never, to my knowledge, a priest and is currently still alive.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  10. Bunyon

    Bunyon
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Its fun guessing, but you did a good job of not giving the identity away. Yea, I think there are lots of folks who endure great abuse and do not become psychotic. So I would never assume it unless I had real evidence. Like I say, there is a difference between being emotionally disturbed and angery and having full knowledge of what you are doing and being psychotic.

    Lets have some fun before you reveal the identity of your person. Feed us some hints as we go so we can try and guess it. Or let us ask give us one guess per post or somethig.
     
  11. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    You can't always blame upbringing for mental illness.

    My mother was the daughter of a Free Will Baptist preacher. She wasn't abused physically or mentally, neither were her 13 brothers and sisters. They witnessed abuse as my grandfather, preacher or not, was both physically and emotionally abusive to my grandmother(these stories I only have from my mother, not from aunts or uncles). They were very poor, but somehow kept body and soul together if only by eating turnip greens day in and day out.

    Out of the 14 of them only 2 have had serious problems with mental illness, mother and her oldest brother. That brother fought in WW2 and his worse symptoms didn't occur until after many years of alcohol abuse. By this time he was quite an old man. He tried to kill his wife and one of his sons. He died in prison from liver cancer.

    All 14 were raised by the same parents. 12 lived out their lives normally. How pray tell, can you point to anything that happened in thier lives and say that event is what caused their mental illness?

    Why then didn't the other 12 kids turn out the same way?

    Mental illness isn't something you catch from bad circumstances. Sometimes ones own sinful choices will compound mental problems you already suffer from(such as my uncle, he could have chosen not to drink and to seek treatment for the demons he thought were coming after him).

    And sometimes you are just plain evil. My mother and my uncle weren't normally evil. But when they had episodes caused by the cyclical nature of thier illnesses, there was no telling what they might do. And they might not remember doing it when they were back to normal.

    Hitler, Hussien, Stalin were evil, not mentally ill. They knew exactly what they were doing. They weren't operating in a schiophrenic haze. There is no evidence they heard voices or had breaks from reality(which if you haven't experienced or witnessed you won't understand).

    I don't believe that everyone who commits murder is therefore mentally ill. Sometimes, the spiritual blindness they live in is such that they lose all contact with conscience. In the absence of conscience all that is left is evil. These are those I believe God "turns over to a reprobate mind". There is no longer anything left to hear the urgings of the Holy Spirit. These people should be executed for their crimes. There is no longer any hope. You can always give them 30 minutes with a preacher before you flip the switch, if it makes you feel better.

    People like my mother and uncle, on the other hand, still feel the urgings of the Spirit. Mother was saved and baptised as a young woman. My uncle, sometime after he committed his crimes, so I was told. These people need compassion and mercy and treatment. They still have a chance to come to know the Lord or come back to the Lord.

    We must considered all the facts before we decide to execute someone.
     
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    BTW,

    This person does not claim to be mad at God. As a matter of fact, he would probably argue that he did most of what he did because God told him to for the glory of God. Sounds a bit psychotic and deranged to me. :eek:

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  13. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    The way a person is raised, the things in their life can not be used as an excuse for their behavior later in life. If this caused a mental illness that caused this behavior then there would be a lot more like him. Many people have been through really bad things like this and not murdered people, this fact alone says he has no defense in his childhood abuses. So to me theres no excuse in anyway in the way his childhood was. This man is just as accountable as anyone else. If he isn't then all murders have to do is make claims form childhood that made the do it.
    Many people have had to rise above their life's circumstances of how they were raised, the abuses they ahd to endure, to live susscessful lives, without murdering or abusing people.
     
  14. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    To all who think I am trying to use his childhood circumstances as an excuse for his behavior, I am not. I would like to know, however, if there are any cases you think there is true mental illness that causes a person to break and go psyco to the point where they lose grip on reality. I am, personally, of the opinion, that anyone who commits rape and murder are not in touch with reality and are mentally ill and deranged. I do not think, however, that this is an excuse for them not to be held accountable, IMO. How do you determine what circumstances are the cause of mental illness and which ones are the cause of anger, rage, etc...

    Please explain this distinction you seem to be making here.

    Thanks,

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  15. Bunyon

    Bunyon
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Hitler, Hussien, Stalin were evil, not mentally ill. They knew exactly what they were doing. They weren't operating in a schiophrenic haze. There is no evidence they heard voices or had breaks from reality(which if you haven't experienced or witnessed you won't understand)."--------------------------------------------------

    And it is proven fact that Hitler was involved in occult. Some folks are just evil. I think it is dangerous to assume that all mass murderers were mentally ill, Joseph. Hitler was very clear on what he was doing. As an occultist it makes sense that he would want to get rid of the Jews. I see a maniacle reason behind what he did, not a psychotic rage.

    Did this fellow ever visit South America.
     
  16. Bunyon

    Bunyon
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    I once was told about a girl walking down the middle of the highway while on patrol. I went and found her. She was not responding to me in a coherent way. I told her to get out of the middle of the highway. She was clearly confused. After getting her of the highway, I ran a check on her and asked her name. She told me Nichole Papsmear. It was real clear that she was not in her right mind. Turns out she lived in a halfway house for mental foster children. She had gotten into an arguement and supposedly hit the lady who ran it. This lady who ran the house did not seem like a great person to me, but hey, its a living I guess. She had just been released from jail, if you can believe that and was walking wherever. I had her commited because she was a danger to herself. If this person had killed someone, I would see her mental state as a mitigating factor. I would not want her to get the death penalty. She could not even hold a coherant conversation with me. They sent her to the mental hospital and I don't know what happened to her after that. Do you think she should be treated exactly like a normal person by the legal system?
     
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    As far as I know, no he didn't.

    He is known, hawever, to be overly paranoid in that he would murder those who he even percieved to be a threat to him.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  18. Bunyon

    Bunyon
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Does his first name start with an I? That is not my first guess, but I am thinking I might be wrong about that one. Did he have a son killed?
     
  19. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Anyone who commits murder (killing an innocent person on purpose) should be executed. The question would be obvious as to whether or not she meant to kill someone. Do you go by what mental health professionals say is mental illness and causes mental illness? Because, I am quite certain that I could probably find one who, if they saw all the evidence about his childhood, and knew his delusions of grandeur and about his paranoia, they would certainly state that he was / is mentally ill and deranged.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    No and Yes.
     

Share This Page

Loading...