Life in prison or death penalty?

Discussion in 'News / Current Events' started by church mouse guy, May 22, 2013.

  1. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy
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    Opponents of the death penalty are forever saying that some law given to Noah is no longer in effect in a shameless secular society and that life in prison is far worse than the death penalty.

    And then tv broadcasts Jodi Arias begging not to be put to death but to be given life in prison.

    So do the opponents of the death penalty have it wrong about which is worse? Or does Arias not know what is best for her?

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/21/us-usa-crime-jodiarias-idUSBRE94K0SJ20130521

    Genesis 9:6 (KJV) Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
     
  2. Crabtownboy

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    To me life in prison with no chance of parole is much harsher than death by injection, hanging or execution by electric chair.

    If we are still under OT law then you have to approve the following, and other admonishments/laws that we completely ignore these days ... and many for good reason.

    Seems to me the first admonishment shows a lack of understanding of reproduction. That is not surprising considering when this was written.

    Just about every farmer and gardener are guilty of planting two more more types of seed in a field/garden.

    And all of us are guilty of the third admonishment.

    So, where does that leave us?
     
  3. church mouse guy

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    The law given to Noah predates the Law of Moses by several centuries, CTB, so the question does not involve theocratic Israel. Very few ask for the death penalty so I assume that the death penalty is worse than life in jail. Arias said that she wanted to start a book club and that she would donate her hair to charity if she could live.
     
  4. Salty

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    If life in prison MEANT no chance of parole - I might go along with it.
    In addition - there is always the possibility of escape.

    CTB - would you go along with this ideal:
    1) Build prisons in the The Aleutian Islands
    2) No amenities such as cable TV (radio ok)
    3) Limited activities
    4) No formal educational programs
    5) Two meals a day

    (anyone else want to make suggestion)

    Salty

     
  5. church mouse guy

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    The question really hinges on man's being made in the image of God. Some people think that they evolved from monkeys.

    The American people are shameless secularists. How can prison be worse than death when criminals beg for prison over the death they deserve for attacking the image of God?

    But I do agree, Salty, that prisons are too nice and nowadays many prisoners have a higher standard of living than working people.

    Jodi Arias begged for her life after shooting, stabbing and cutting the throat of her boyfriend lover. It is likely that he begged her for his life. He was flawed but in my opinion he was made in the image of God.
     
  6. Zaac

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    Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Romans 12:19

    Life and death is to be decided by the One who can righteously make such a judgment. Jail for the rest of her life minus all the frills. We should set up a nice lil penal colony in the desert of southwest Texas.
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    There is a wholesale difference between vengeance and justice.
     
  8. Zaac

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    Perfect justice demands perfect righteousness. Show me a man who is perfectly righteous and free of breaking the law himself and I'll be okay with him meting out final judgment upon someone else.:thumbsup:

    Otherwise, life in jail and leave life and death up to God.
     
  9. Revmitchell

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    Ok well that is far different from what I responded to. You misused scripture to mischaracterize the death penalty as vengeance. I responded to that.
     
  10. Salty

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    You have stated that man (or govt) has no right to take a mans life.

    That on what basis does a man (or govt) have to imprison someone for life or even one day?
     
  11. church mouse guy

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    I don't know why you want to pollute the desert--why don't you put it in DC since Mark Twain said that we have no natural criminal class except Congressmen? I don't know why you want the taxpayers to keep murderers alive whey Scripture says that they should be executed. As I asked before, did Arias show any mercy when her boyfriend begged for his life?

    I think that the Scripture that you wanted in addition to Genesis 9:6 which says that murderers should be executed because man is made in the image of God (which you may not believe yourself) is:

    Romans 13:4 (KJV) For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
     
  12. Zaac

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    God has given the authority to punish to maintain order. He just hasn't given man the right to make the call to take someone's life as that punishment. As equal breakers of the same law, we could never righteously make such a decision.
     
  13. Zaac

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    I am all for putting up a gate around DC and fencing them all in.

    As i asked in the other thread, when is the last time we executed a woman who got an abortion? That's murder.

    Society picks and chooses what it thinks is worthy of death. And the fact that we don't consistently make these judgments shows the inability of man to RIGHTEOUSLY make that decision.

    The Scripture that I wanted was the same as I gave in the other thread. James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
     
  14. Salty

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    Scripture please - on all points

    Legally it is not murder - as US law has stated it is legal.
     
  15. Dennis324

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    In general, I am against the death penalty. Personally I think life at hard labor is a much worse sentence.

    However, if someone harms a little child, I would be hard pressed not to go along with the death penalty.
     
  16. Mexdeaf

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    Unfortunately that seems not to exist much in the USA any more.

    The death penalty does have a big flaw - it is not executed quickly enough. We allow people to languish on death row for decades until the sentence is carried out.

    From Wiki:

    In the United States, prisoners may wait years before execution can be carried out due to the complex, expensive, and time-consuming appeals procedures mandated in the jurisdiction. The time between sentencing and execution has increased relatively steadily between 1977 and 2010, including a 22% jump between 1989 and 1990 and a similar jump between 2008 and 2009. In 2010, a death row inmate waited an average of 178 months (or close to 15 years) between sentencing and execution.[1] Nearly a quarter of deaths on death row in the U.S. are due to natural causes.[2]
     
  17. Gina B

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    Avenging crimes of hatred, bitterness, etc. seem to be different than crimes such as murder and theft.

    For crimes such as murder and theft, I see nothing in scripture that relieves a person of the obligation to recompense their victims here on earth, either with money or with their own blood.

    For things such as hurting someone's feelings, being unfaithful, (after the cross) or gossiping, etc., those seem to be the ones where we are told to not seek any recompense for.

    Never does it say to ignore people breaking the law, that being merciful includes letting murderers and rapists and thieves roam free or continue their lives. Murder seems to be described in the Bible as rising up in anger suddenly, without just cause, against another person, NOT the death penalty, not war and not self defense.
     
  18. canadyjd

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    And then you said...
    Just to be accurate, Gen. 9 doesn't use the words "murderers should be executed". Gen.9 speaks of "shedding blood", which could mean anything from premeditated murder, to accidental death during a fistfight, to allowing your ox to run loose and kill your neighbor.

    Again, just to be accurate, Gen. 9 doesn't speak of governments executing people, because governments didn't exist, just Noah, his sons and their families. So you can't really have it both ways. You can't say Gen.9 is still in effect because it predates the laws of execution given to governments in the O.T., but then point to the government as the one who does the execution.

    If the death penalty can stand on Gen.9 alone, then just use Gen. 9 alone for it's support.

    What exactly do you think Gen. 9 means? Do you believe it means that God literally demands that any person who "sheds blood" (premeditated murder? Accidental death due to negligence? ) must be put to death by another man? That is what the text says. Is that what you believe?
     
  19. church mouse guy

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    Canadyjd, Genesis 9 says "whoso" which can only refer to a person.

    Genesis 9:6 (KJV) Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

    This verse is a series of "last-minute" instructions given to Noah at the end of the flood. It is assumes correctly that there will soon be governments. I said that the law given to Noah predated the Law of Moses when someone suggested that we should then have to obey the Law of Moses and therefore this early pre-Mosaic commandment had nothing to do with the Law of Moses. I think Matthew Henry gives the traditional Protestant commentary on what God meant.

    Matthew Henry (1662 to 1714) does not support your viewpoint and does enunciate in detail the traditional viewpoint of Genesis 9:6, several verses calling for the execution of murderers. My point is that everyone is saying that prison is worse than execution but in the Arias case she begged not to be put to death so murderers such as her seem to fear execution more than life in prison. So they people who call for prison as worse do not seem to have any confirmation from the people being sentenced. Here is Matthew Henry's comment on Genesis 9:6:

    "4. Wilful murderers must be put to death. This is the sin which is here designed to be restrained by the terror of punishment (1.) God will punish murderers: At the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man, that is, “I will avenge the blood of the murdered upon the murderer.” 2 Chr. 24:22. When God requires the life of a man at the hand of him that took it away unjustly, the murderer cannot render that, and therefore must render his own in lieu of it, which is the only way left of making restitution. Note, The righteous God will certainly make inquisition for blood, though men cannot or do not. One time or other, in this world or in the next, he will both discover concealed murders, which are hidden from man’s eye, and punish avowed and justified murders, which are too great for man’s hand. (2.) The magistrate must punish murderers (v. 6): Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, whether upon a sudden provocation or having premeditated it (for rash anger is heart-murder as well as malice prepense, Mt. 5:21, 22), by man shall his blood be shed, that is, by the magistrate, or whoever is appointed or allowed to be the avenger of blood. There are those who are ministers of God for this purpose, to be a protection to the innocent, by being a terror to the malicious and evildoers, and they must not bear the sword in vain, Rom. 13:4. Before the flood, as it should seem by the story of Cain, God took the punishment of murder into his own hands; but now he committed this judgment to men, to masters of families at first, and afterwards to the heads of countries, who ought to be faithful to the trust reposed in them. Note, Wilful murder ought always to be punished with death. It is a sin which the Lord would not pardon in a prince (2 Kings 24:3, 4), and which therefore a prince should not pardon in a subject. To this law there is a reason annexed: For in the image of God made he man at first. Man is a creature dear to his Creator, and therefore ought to be so to us. God put honour upon him, let not us then put contempt upon him. Such remains of God’s image are still even upon fallen man as that he who unjustly kills a man defaces the image of God and does dishonour to him. When God allowed men to kill their beasts, yet he forbade them to kill their slaves; for these are of a much more noble and excellent nature, not only God’s creatures, but his image, Jam. 3:9. All men have something of the image of God upon them; but magistrates have, besides, the image of his power, and the saints the image of his holiness, and therefore those who shed the blood of princes or saints incur a double guilt."
     
  20. canadyjd

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    Since you quote Matthew Henry, I guessing you believe the things he states. Let's take a look.
    God did not punish Cain with death. That was a "willful murder". God did not punish Moses with death for the "willful murder" of the Egyptian. God did not punish David for the "willful murder" of Uriah the Hittite. God did not punish Paul for the "willful murder" of Christians.

    Maybe making an absolute statement that God will always punish willful murderers with death isn't supported by scripture.
     

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