Living A Godly Life

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by th1bill, Feb 8, 2011.

  1. th1bill

    th1bill
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    Recently I came across a conversation on one of the forums I'm a contributing member of about the, infamous Westboro ?Baptist? Church out of Kansas and their presence at this years Super Bowl Game in Dallas and the remarks disturbed me, greatly.


    Let me be very clear about where I stand on the matter of Fred Phelps, his daughter and the rest of that assembly. They are calling themselves Baptists but that is not true! There might be a saved member or two in that assembly of human beings but if they are there, as I read the scriptures they are Cardinal Christians that are quenching the Spirit. By me also being human, I am prone to misjudgments, but everything I know and everything I see in the News Media just disturbs me to no end when these people are the subject. They, absolutely, are driven by a spirit but it is not the Holy Spirit that directs them.


    Now, please understand, we walk a very fine line in matters of this sort. These folks are not following the LORD, our Lord, and therefore are in sin and we are instructed to hate sin but to love the sinner. (1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

    1Jn 4:9 Herein was the love of God manifested in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him.

    Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. ASV)


    What disturbed me so much was the idea that people I have come to know and accept as brothers and sisters in Christ were finding it to be a good idea if the bus, filled with adults and children would wreck in the ditch as they were in route to Dallas. I would love to see these people come to the Saving Grace that is found in Jesus and that will not happen to some of the kids and adults if they die in a bus wreck. More than once I have prayed for God to place His hand on these people and to turn them back to Himself. (2Pet. 3:9) The principal I'm teaching here is often scoffed at as not being Biblical. The problem with that is the same problem we see with the Rapture, the Trinity and other principals taught in the scriptures.


    The simple fact that something is not stated in clear syntax is never a reason to dismiss the teaching off hand. Indeed, that is when we begin to do as the Bereans did, (Acts 17:11,12) and search the scriptures to see if the teaching is true or false. When Jesus, God in the flesh of a man walked the Earth he gave us a tremendous clue to understanding the scriptures, He taught in parables! When His disciples inquired as to why He answered them by teaching them that the parables were for those that had the ears to hear! There is a shocking truth in that statement from God. Those that do not have ears for spiritual matters, simply, will not hear and then when we read John 1:1-3, we find that Jesus is the creator of everything, so Jesus is the author of all of the Bible. Then in Heb. 6:16,17 and in Mal. 3:6 we find that the nature of God is immutable... He never changes!


    Like God, we must learn to hate sin and to love sinners, even the worst of them. This is not an option, Jesus/God, has shown us this principal throughout the Old and the New Testaments... it is a command!
     
  2. gb93433

    gb93433
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    While that sounds good I find no place in scripture where a person's sin is separated from the person who sins. It is the person who sins and is affected by their sin. The two are inseparable and intertwined.
     
  3. th1bill

    th1bill
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    I'm not really sure of the spirit you have made this comment in but I do notice that you appear to be rejecting the idea that we, like Jesus, should love the unlovable. And yet you appear to be doing this from the top of your head and not from the guiding of the Spirit and have offered no scriptural basis for this position.
     
  4. gb93433

    gb93433
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    Not at all. When you treat the person you do not just treat the person or just the sin but the entire person.

    Sin has consequences and that affects the person. In James it talks about how sin leads to death. The sin cannot be separated from the sinner. The sin produces an effect on a sinner.

    In James 5:13-18 the entire person is dealt with.

    The idea of separating the sin from the sinner is not biblical and just an American cliche.

    Scripture says that we are to love people but that does not mean we separate the person from the sin as if to cut them into two parts. That is like cutting the spirit from the body. Sin affects the spirit, soul, and body (the entire being).
     
  5. th1bill

    th1bill
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    Alright, good! Now that we are on the same footing, you have placed words into my mouth that were never even considered for crossing my lips, what is that about? I have separated no-one from their sin! And you have completely refused to deal with the scripture I worked this message from. What is that about?
     
  6. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    Psalm 58:6 (NIV)
    From Matthew Henry's Commentary:
    This is one of the many Imprecatory Psalms, where David (or other author) "invokes judgment, calamity or curses on one's enemies or those perceived as enemies of God." (From Wikipedia)

    I understand praying for people; I also understand praying against some people.

    I don't recall the Westboro folks ever were reported to be praying FOR somebody, particularly their salvation.
     
    #6 Tom Butler, Feb 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 8, 2011
  7. gb93433

    gb93433
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    I have heard the saying "hate sin and love the sinner" so many times over the years as if to say one can separate the sinner from their sin and you cannot. It was if to say ignore the sin and love the sinner. You cannot love the sinner by ignoring their sin.
     
  8. th1bill

    th1bill
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    Tom,
    That is true to the very best of my knowledge and the logical conclusion from what you've said here is that we should ignore the scripture I worked from and all the other scripture that is referenced to these and follow the example of the sinners at Westboro. As I search the scriptures I cannot find a single one that supports that theory until we begin to look at all the warts and scabs illustrated by scripture. God has seen to it that the best and the worst were recorded and as we pour through the scriptures, assuming that you do, we are led by the Holy Spirit to discern (judge) the est from the worst and to apply the best to our lives.
     
  9. th1bill

    th1bill
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    gb,
    You are still, openly, avoiding the Word of God, that is never good! I have a man living next door to me that is guilty of killing a pet of mine with Anti-freeze. I know he did it but I cannot conclusively prove it in court. I hate his tendency to do stupid things like this but I pray for his salvation. I do that because of what the Spirit has taught me over the past 20+ years of study.

    I have given you scripture and you are still calling yourself a Christian and approaching this conversation from the worlds position and logic. I would like to continue but I will not until you go back to the scriptures and drop the world's attitude.
     

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