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Discussion in 'Politics' started by KenH, Mar 27, 2006.
An interesting column by Michael Barone - Column LINK.
I am for the Americanization of the illegals as suggested by Michael Barone but it is a slow process that is not done overnight.
I am also for a wall between us and Canada and us and Mexico. It should be a wall such as Israel has or perhaps a wall like the great wall of China that could be patrolled by automobiles.
To me building a wall is a security device to keep terrorists from entering our borders.
I am not for the legalization. There are hundreds of thousands of Mexicans, jumping thorough all the hoops necessary to become US citizens, and legitimate taxpaying workers. And now we grant "amnesty" to the law breakers? Are we a nation of "laws" or not? What kind of message does that send?
A proper wall would be soooo expensive, unless we hire illegals to erect it.
I agree. No amnesty. If you are here illegally, then go home and come back legally. That's all. If we Americans think the process is unfair or wrong, then change the process.
We can't change the process, Joseph. Nearly all our elected officials are corrupt, as evidenced by the Bill coming out of the Senate Judiciary Committee - which does away with criminalization of illegals and grants back door amnesty. The process is beyond change unless voters quit voting for Democratic OR Republican candidates. I've written my Senators, called my Senators, and written to Mr. Mehlman, Chairman of the GOP. You can write, too. The address is:
At least we can let them know of our great displeasure.
You're right, LE.
Which state is Tancredo in? All those who live in that state, get rid of Tancredo because he is a Republican.
Am I the only one on here who has no problem with amnesty?
Joseph, you know that Tom Tancredo stands alone, and he is a Congressman - the bill is currently in the Senate. My complaints aired to the Chairman of the GOP were about the dastardly deed the Republicans (who sided with Democrats) in the Senate Judiciary Committee did to the House Bill. The present bill that will be brought to the floor of the Senate is NOTHING like the original house bill. They killed it in committee. Sen. Bill Frists (substitute) bill is no better.
It is folly to say that the USA has not granted illegals sanctuary since the onset of the Mexican Revolution in 1910 and all during the turmoil that lasted until 1920. And there must have been other refugees back into the 18th and 19th centuries who sought the freedom of the USA.
I agree that illegals should not be allowed to stay but there are also practical considerations that override the law and translate into their staying.
First of all, the sheer force of numbers would mean that it would be almost impossible to deport them.
Secondly, there are legitimate humanitarian considerations in that the filth and squalor of Old Mexico could not accomodate any repatriatization of such numbers.
Old Mexico is corrupt politically and judicially. Blesssed with abundant natural resources, the development of the country has been at the mercy of a corrupt and slow-moving government where all progress has been gained by the payment of bribes.
Of course, the Roman Catholic Church sits on a treasure house of wealth in art and manuscripts stored in the Vatican but the Pope would not raise a penny to alleviate the suffering of a Catholic nation. Such suffering as happens in Old Mexico as well as the rest of Latin America is caused by the timidity and corruption of Catholic doctrine as well as the Pope's refusal to allow birth control in nations where there is no provision for population growth.
And then there is no motion for reform within the United States.
For example, it has been pointed out that during the Dust Bowl of the Great Depression of the 1930s when there was no welfare, people worked and did whatever they could to eat. Now the welfare rolls are padded with millions of people who would not work for $100,000 a year.
So places such as Indianapolis import illegals to clean the office buildings downtown for the lawyers and huge corporations and the luxury and tourtist hotels and the posh restaurants. Indianapolis downtown depends upon conventions and without the illegal workforce, the downtown could not function. And then there is the construction of all these new homes and the landscaping of all these new grounds--all done by illegals.
So the upper classes will not want to deport their illegals.
The illegals are a sad lot. They seldom know any English. They have the look of starvation about them, being only about 5 feet tall. They hardly know how to function in the modern world of electricity, running water, and central heat and air conditioning, cell phones, and computers. Some seem to be pure Indian.
I think that the Baptists solve America's problems. It is up to us to learn some Spanish, teach them English, and convert the illegals to Protestantism.
As for the criminal element among them, I think that anyone here illegally who is convicted of a crime in the USA should be deported. Of course, anyone who is a fugitive from the judicial system in Old Mexico should be deported.
The insane among them should be put in American hospitals for the reason that Old Mexico will not treat them at this time.
Meanwhile, I should build a wall no matter what the expense and close the borders and regulate immigration, not because of the illegals from Canada and Mexico but because of our international terrorist enemies.
[joke]Elsewhere, President Bush urged legal status for 11 million illegal aliens in the hopes that some of them will approve of the job he is doing as President. [/joke]
My views on the immigration problem are expressed in emails to my two Senators. Unfortunately Senator Graham joined with Senators McCain, Brownback and ? to vote the democrat amnesty bill out of the Judiciary Committee. Hopefully Senator Frist will introduce his bill which emphasizes border security.
email #1, March 24
I strongly support Senate acceptance and passage of the House Immigration Bill. I strongly support the construction of a wall across the border with Mexico. If we don’t know how to build a wall get Israel to build one. They know how and have recognized the benefit of it.
I believe that the influx of illegal immigration must be stopped before any action can be taken on either a guest worker program or any program to legitimatize the status of illegals that are currently in this country.
Furthermore, a nation that cannot secure its borders cannot continue to exist as a free nation. The demonstrations by illegals in past days are disgraceful and a blight on the integrity of this nation.
email #2, March 27
The proliferation of Mexican flags at the Los Angeles demonstration Saturday is a visible and vivid reason why the House Immigration Bill should be accepted and passed by the Senate. Many of the illegals who enter this country from Mexico have no desire to become US citizens. Apparently a significant number want to reverse the history of the Southwest.
I believe that all illegals should be rounded up and sent back to their country of origin. Frankly I am tired of going into Walmart and hearing nothing but Spanish. I am tired of hearing some phone operated computer saying punch 1 for English and 2 for Spanish.
Furthermore, I strongly support the construction of a wall across the border with Mexico. If we don’t know how to build a wall get Israel to build one. They know how and have recognized the benefit of it.
Until our borders are secure no action should be taken on either a guest worker program or any program to legitimatize the status of illegals that are currently in this country. It is also essential that employers who knowingly employee illegals be held to account. The argument that these people do jobs that US citizens won’t is invalid. With an unemployment rate of ~ 5% there are people available, just take the welfare away.
I do not blame people for wanting to get into this country. I thank God that I live here. But wanting something and getting it are two different things. I might want one million dollars but I don’t go out and rob a bank. I might want someone to do my yard work or housework dirt cheap but I don’t go out and hire an illegal to do it.
This nation is founded on the rule of law. It is time, in fact past time, that people who break those laws are held to account.
email #3, March 27
This my second email of the day, the 3rd in the past week. My question to you: Is the Senate going to be held hostage to illegals carrying Mexican flags in our street? Pass the House Immigration Bill, build fences on the Mexican border, put an end to the demonstrations in the streets by sending the illegals back. If we are perceived as anti immigration so what? We are a sovereign nation, at least I thought so.
Actually the cost of building a wall has been estimated at 2 billion dollars. Even at ten times that cost it would be cheap considering that illegals get their medical care at Emergency Rooms which by law must provide medical care.
Colorado. Tancredo has been the voice crying in the wilderness but I believe he has finally been heard. Hopefully all those mexican flags flying around will help.
Joseph, you know that Tom Tancredo stands alone, and he is a Congressman - the bill is currently in the Senate. My complaints aired to the Chairman of the GOP were about the dastardly deed the Republicans (who sided with Democrats) in the Senate Judiciary Committee did to the House Bill. The present bill that will be brought to the floor of the Senate is NOTHING like the original house bill. They killed it in committee. Sen. Bill Frists (substitute) bill is no better. </font>[/QUOTE]Lady Eagle
The Senate cannot kill a House Bill. If the Senate passes a Bill it will go to a conference committee which will arrive at a compromise bill for vote. My understanding of Senator Frist's bill is that it is an enforcement bill only, similar to the House bill.
God requires that we show love and compassion to aliens:
In Deuteronomy 10:18–19, we learn that "God defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing. And you are to love those who are aliens, for youyourselves were aliens in Egypt."</font>
Leviticus 19:33-34 teaches us, "when an alien liveswith you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated asone of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."</font>
Abram and Sarai, the mother and father of Israel, are now planted in my imagination as possible protestors and rabble rousers. Their act of potential civil disobedience is found in Genesis. Abram's welcome of three strangers is the quintessential hospitality story in the Bible. It is marked by a flurry of activity as Abram rushes about ordering food, cleaning up the tent and entertaining the mysterious newcomers.</font>
But Abram welcomes the three without knowing where they came from or where they are going. He asks for no identification and requires no answers about the strangers' country of origin. As such, if Abram lived in the U.S. in 2007, these actions would have made him a potential crime suspect. If the strangers turned out to be undocumented workers a bill passed by the House in December would have allowed law enforcement to arrest the holy couple for harboring illegal aliens.</font>
Surely as a nation we must make laws which are just and follow God's will (e.g. Gay marriage, abortion). I think with the Old testament's commands showing love to immgrants - and - Jesus' command to care for the 'least of these', that the erection of a 700-mile wall and repatriating 11 million hardworking human beings is somewhat unbiblical.
Its not a liberal issue - im a conservative evangelical - its a moral and economic issue. Immigrants are a necessity for the US economy (ask ANY economist worth his salt), the US was built on immigration and the concept that if you work hard then 'the laborer is worthy of his reward' And immigrants work the longest hours, in the worst jobs to provide their familys with hope.
So like World Relief, the humanitarian arm of the National Association of Evangelicals, lets support compassionate politics and oppose the criminilaztion of the 'least of these' [why not sign the evangelical petition below ]
"America is a stronger and better nation because of the hard work and the faith and entrepreneurial spirit of immigrants.... Our country has always benefited from the dreams that others have brought here. By working hard for a better life, immigrants contribute to the life of our nation." President George W. Bush, Jan. 7, 2004
all the best
The analogy to the past fails because those immigrants were mostly legal, although I concede that probably always people have fled Mexico into the freedom of the Republic of Texas and the freedom of the USA. And I concede that the flow has been great since the Mexican Revolution of 1910.
However, the British are an island and they themselves are limited in how many people can live there.
The situation in the US is more complicated than just loving one's neighbor and being hospitable.
We have welfare fraud wherein the able-bodied can refuse to work and the working must pay taxes to support them. We have illegals doing the work that corporate American needs done cheaply in order to have a big profit. Imagine how much more services would cost if we had to pay American wages for them in addition to the welfare burden.
Of course, the corruption of Old Mexico and the failure of the Vatican to allow birth control are part of the problem that has forced these people into the USA.
So far I have not mentioned the murder of the unborn in this country that has caused the worker shortage in the first place.
The illegals are a burden, not a blessing. They cannot be Americanized overnight. They are Catholic, not Protestant, and they are militant Catholic. Many are anti-American, just here to rip us off however they can.
Yet the practical problem is that they will vote illegally in Indianapolis and elsewhere in large numbers and they will vote for big government to give them more benefits because they will miss the failed socialism of Mexico and the socialistic ideals of Latin American Catholicism.
Why do you insist on stereotyping and tarring everyone with the same brush. Of the 11 million illegal aliens, most ARE law abiding and do the jobs which need to be done but Americans won't do. They are a 'blessing' because they work hard, for low wages in jobs which need filling otherwise as you say "Imagine how much more services would cost if we had to pay American wages for them".
They should pay taxes indeed, but how can they if you don't allow them to apply for citenzship.
When God wrote in Leviticus 19:33-34 "when an alien lives with you in your land...The alien living with you must be treated asone of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."
He wasn't kidding.
PS. not everyone on welfare is lazy or a 'welfare cheater' - how would you like it if you became cripppled yet had a family to support - do you really think 'we the people' should "clencheth his bowels of compassion" and not help you out finacially through our taxes???
ST. LUKE, XIV
13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
I don't know why a Brit is so insistent that America cannot defend her borders and so insistent that an American cannot deplore some of the many illegal residents who committed a criminal act to enter America.
Afterall, we are here because countries like England had no charity for us and no religious liberty for us and wanted to disarm us and establish a military dictatorship over us under the English king.
So far all we have done is suffered these people.
We all know that our political system is corrupt enough to continue abortion in order to enrich the doctors and the politicians and that nothing will be done about the illegals because the voting system is so corrupt that the illegals will vote illegally and the elected officials will kowtow to the Mexican voting bloc.
So for those of us disgusted at the Catholic Church, the corruption of Old Mexico, abortion, the lack of a secure border against terrorism, the welfare burden that involves able-bodied people in many instances, and the open anti-Americanism of Latinos as well as their racism, we have no alternative except to wait for the American people to wake up and smell the Colombian coffee on the stove.
As for the British, they exported us to this country because they wanted rid of us. It is true that the reason that the sun never set on the British Empire was that God does not trust Englishmen in the dark. And England is now a pagan country where anything goes but it is covered up by a increasingly thin veneer of money, money, money. The British intentions for us were not based on the Bible verses that you have pasted all over your message, LoveYourNeighbor.
That was before the advent of the modern nation-state. A nation has a right to self-defense, including defense of its borders from invasion.
YOU GO, CMG! You rock.