Lo I stand at the door and knock

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by C.S. Murphy, Jul 26, 2003.

  1. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy
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    A calvinist friend I know told me that when Jesus said this at the end of Revelation that He was not speaking to lost people, can anyone elaborate on this thought.
    Murph
     
  2. Gunther

    Gunther
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    Most likely it is because he opens by calling them a church. For Christ to say that, it implies that they are already redeemed.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Wishfull thinking on the part of the Calvinist.

    The text of Rev 3 says "I Would that you were EITHER Cold or hot -- but because you are luke warm I will spit you out of my mouth".

    HE calls them spiritually "Miserable, poor, blind and naked, with Christ on the OUTSIDE calling and knocking to come in" as "opposed" to Clothed in Christ's righteousness.

    The idea that the born-again saved condition is "without the robe of Christ - naked and spiritually blind, with Christ on the OUTSIDE knocking to come in" is NEVER presented in all of scripture.

    The idea - that churches ONLY had saved people in them - is NEVER argued in all of scripture.

    However - even worse for your Calvinist frined "Behold I STAND at the door and KNOCK if anyone HEAR my voice AND OPEN the door I WILL come in". The Christ-OUTSIDE your hearts door condition is the "saved condition" according to some really desperate Calvinists. But hopefully - most will not make that mistake.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Kiffin

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    True! It is Jesus calling for the Church of Laodecia to repent. It is probably taken out of context more than any other scripture. The verse has nothing to do with salvation but of a lukewarm church that had forgotten her Lord.
     
  5. Major B

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    Bob,

    If you find a reference to the human heart and its "door" In Rev 3, I'll eat my Scofield. The only verse in scripture that refers to opening the human heart in the context of salvation is Acts 16:14, which speaks of Lydia, "whose heart the Lord opened..."

    Jesus is knocking on the door of an unfaithful church, calling to the faithful remnant within. There is no human heart here except in the famous painter's imagination.

    This IS the most misquoted and misapplied verse in the Bible
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    Glad others see that as well. Don't know how many times I've heard Rev 3:20 be an invitation to the unsaved which is 100% false.

    Even for a strong dispensationalist that would equate the messages of Rev 2-3 with various eras of the church age, at the end Jesus is outside the church and seeking readmission to this worldly and backslidden (if I can borrow an OT term also misused widely) group.

    Sounds like my church. [​IMG]
     
  7. GH

    GH
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    All have not yet called upon His name, but when all is said and done, all men shall call upon His name. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will pledge alliegance to Him.

    "Therefore wait for me," declares the LORD, for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them- all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that ALL OF THEM MAY CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD and serve him shoulder to shoulder".
    --Zeph. 3:8-9

    What a good and great God we have!

    All glory, praise and honor to you, Almighty Father. \o/
     
  8. KenH

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    What a great pair of verses, Diane!

    Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/
     
  9. BobRyan

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    The hopeful efforts on behalf of Calvinism seem to continue here. So lets do a little exegesis for a change - the text IS surely speaking to "ANY of MANKIND" and speaking in INDIVIDUAL terms, though we can all readily see that Calvinism's teaching here needs to turn from that fact.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ July 27, 2003, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  10. GH

    GH
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    Hi Ken [​IMG]

    Thanks for your post :D

    I agree with what some of the brethren are saying here: God is talking to believers in that verse about standing at the door and knocking. He calls us into a deeper union with Him. He calls us out of the harlotry of an organized religious system to give us HIMSELF. There is so much more to seek in Him. That we may know Him, the one true and Living God! Amen.

    Rev. 22

    16 "I, Jesus, send My messenger to testify these things to you in the ecclesias. I am the root and the race of David, the resplendent morning star.
    17 And the spirit and the bride are saying, 'Come!' and let him who is hearing say, 'Come !' And let him who is thirsting come. Let him who will, take the water of life gratuitously.
    18 "I am testifying to everyone who is hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If ever anyone may be appending to them, God shall be appending to him the calamities written in this scroll.
    19 And if ever anyone should be eliminating from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall be eliminating his part from the log of life, and out of the holy city, that is written in this scroll.
    20 "He Who is testifying these things is saying, 'Yea, I am coming swiftly.'" "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!"
    21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints! Amen!

    Did you ever notice, Ken, that in the book of Rev. after all is said and done - that the Spirit and the Bride are still saying Come? Interesting, very interesting.

    May His love enfold us more and more as we seek to know Him. \o/

    Diane
     
  11. dianetavegia

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    Sounds like Calvinistic denial to me! Sorry Dr. Bob, I disagree! This is most definately a call to those within the 'church' who are lukewarm, wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--

    Rev. 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.


    Diane
     
  12. Major B

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    Sounds like Calvinistic denial to me! Sorry Dr. Bob, I disagree! This is most definately a call to those within the 'church' who are lukewarm, wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--

    Rev. 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.


    Diane
    </font>[/QUOTE]We agree; it is a call to the church as Christ knocks on the door of the church. That is not how it is preached ad infinitum, but that the knocking is on the heart's door. Where is the human heart mentioned in Rev 3? It is not. The only verse in the Bible which speaks of opening the heart is Acts 16:14, and the Lord opens the heart there.
     
  13. KenH

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    Diane,

    The church through 2000 years, and especially since the time of Augustine, has so twisted and warped what is supposed to be "Good News" that it is not surprising that there are a gazillion different interpretations of all stripes in existence today.

    Today, most churches preach "Bad News" except for what they consider the 1% or so of the population they consider to be saved. In any other setting, we would understand that a scheme that fails 99% of the time is a disaster. Yet most churches consider this to be "Good News". But, of course, those promoting this consider themselves to be part of the 1%.

    Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/
     
  14. GH

    GH
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    Amen, Ken [​IMG]

    Luke 4:18
    "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,

    We strain at gnats and swallow camels while the beauty of the Lord goes unnoticed.

    He who has eyes, let him see

    He who has ears, let him hear what the Spirit of the Lord is saying.

    Oh Lord, give us a revelation of who you are! Amen.


    Diane
     
  15. ColoradoFB

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    Low I stand at the door, so thou cannot see me through thy peephole! ;)
     
  16. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi y'all
    After reading these post I have a couple of questions.
    With respect to both sides of this issue I would like to know if Christ spews these out of His mouth. What does this mean? Does it mean that they are no longer part of the Body of Christ.If so then how could they be saved in the first place. Since we are suppose to be, once saved always saved.
    Maybe There not saved completely? I did notice that the church talked about in this same chapter just before Laodeica called the Church of Philadelphia. There is no question they were saved because of what Christ said in verse 8.
    Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

    These have an open door and no one can shut it. It seems obvious to me that if Laodieca has a closed door and Christ has to knock at it then obviously they aren't saved. Because they have no strength they haven't kept his word and maybe they even denied His name. The implication of them being luke warm to me seems like they only have part of there Salvation right and have refused the most important part which is Jesus.
    "They Have need of nothing" Could it be they feel they have no need of Christ?
    May God bless you;
    Mike
     
  17. BobRyan

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    The Wicked - lost are not "in Christ"- they are not in danger of losing their "exaulted" in-Christ status.

    Only to the church of the saints could it be said that they are "in danger" of being spewed out RATHER than remaining "in Christ".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Yelsew

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    Sorry to be late into this, but I've been away for a week. Nevertheless,
    GH, Just where is it that scripture says the part about all man shall call upon his name, and that every tongue will pledge allegiance to Him? I find "Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord", but nothing to do with "all men calling on His Name", or "pledging allegiance to Him". Most assuredly many shall be judged and then cast into the lake of Fire, the second death, because they did not call on his name nor did they pledge allegience to Him.

    Those who bend the knee will be in two categories, those who worship Him, and those who are defeated by Him. Those who confess him as Lord will also be in two categories, those who believe and are saved by His lordship, and those who failed to believe and are defeated by his Lordship.
     
  19. KenH

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    Zeph. 3:9 (ESV)
    "For at that time I will change the speech of the peoples
    to a pure speech,
    that all of them may call upon the name of the Lord
    and serve him with one accord.
     
  20. Yelsew

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    What day or time does Zephania refer to in saying, "in that day"?
     

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