Lo I stand at the door and knock

I repeat:

"Therefore wait for me," declares the LORD, for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them- all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that ALL OF THEM MAY CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD and serve him shoulder to shoulder".
--Zeph. 3:8-9

What a good and great God we have!

All glory, praise and honor to you, Almighty Father. \o/

God says WAIT FOR ME! Looks like HE knows the DAY and HE knows the hour. He gathers the nations. He purifies ALL so that All can call on HIS name. His beauty will draw ALL.

Can you believe that? Are you SO SURE that He can't do it? It is worth seeking HIM about. Can you wait on Him? Or must you have answer now.

GH

 

And what do you do with,

Not every one calls on the name of the Lord! There will indeed be multitudes that have not, do not, and will not! Their fate is sealed!

 

Only for this age. You are failing to deal with the ages to come that the Bible speaks of when God will restore all of creation to Himself. Your time horizon is much, much too short. God will not fail. He will not lose a single one of His creation.

 

Only for this age. You are failing to deal with the ages to come that the Bible speaks of when God will restore all of creation to Himself. Your time horizon is much, much too short. God will not fail. He will not lose a single one of His creation. </font>[/QUOTE]Rev 14:11 expressly denies your claim: Revelation 14:11 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Your time frame is the one that is too short. Hell lasts forever.

 

Only for this age. You are failing to deal with the ages to come that the Bible speaks of when God will restore all of creation to Himself. Your time horizon is much, much too short. God will not fail. He will not lose a single one of His creation. </font>[/QUOTE]It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement! Upon Judgement, those found unworthy are cast into the lake of fire. After that, this heaven and this earth shall pass away to be replaced by a New Heaven and a New Earth and the New Earth will have a New Jerusalem in which the Living God, who is Spirit, resides among and with man, his creation for the rest of Eternity in accordance with the written word of God.

The Lake of Fire is part of this present Heaven and Earth. It too will pass away with all who have been cast therein, never to be seen again throughout eternity. Yes, the punishment described in Revelation is eternal for those cast into the lake, for once there it is forever even though the lake of fire disappears from God's presence and we know from God that he is omnipresent, everywhere all the time.

 

Yelsew is right.

As for Pastor Larry - I think Ken's point is that most of the bad guys don't go to hell, so whether it lasts for a day or a zillion years - he is getting them "saved" after death - before they ever get to it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Nope. Those who have not repented and come to Jesus in this age, end up in the lake of fire until they do repent. No one gets away with refusing God's free offer of salvation from sin.

 

Nope. Those who have not repented and come to Jesus in this age, end up in the lake of fire until they do repent. No one gets away with refusing God's free offer of salvation from sin. </font>[/QUOTE]Can you show us one example of one who has, by accepting God's free offer of salvation while in the Lake of fire, who has 'escaped from' the Lake of Fire after being judged and cast into it?

Jesus' atonement removed sin from the judgement! Jesus took the penalty of the sins of the whole world upon himself. Therefore, One does not get cast into the Lake of fire because of sin, but because of lack of faith!

Jesus' atonement "leveled the playing field for all mankind". His atonement removed sin from consideration at the judgment. You see, it is possible for one human to sin more greatly than another in the same manner that one can do greater works than another. By removing sin and works from the judgment, the only thing man can be judged by is man's faith condition upon his death from this natural life, the first death! When one is found "wanting", that is, having no faith at one's trial, that one is cast into the lake of fire, the second and final death from which there is no redemption.

After the last human who will be judged is judged, this heaven and earth along with the lake of fire will PASS AWAY, be gone eternally and a NEW HEAVEN and EARTH will Take it's place, and there will be no Lake of Fire, because evil has been conquered and destroyed forever!

 

That's kinda hard to do since no one has been cast into the lake of fire yet.

 

if a friend or relative were thrown into the lake of fire and you were given the opportunity to save them by entering into that same lake to rescue them.

would you?

 

Hades... Lake of Fire... That's right Ken, BUT the BIBLE says:

 

We are not given that opportunity when it comes to salvation. Salvation is a personal decision.


However, if my child were to fall into a lake or swimming pool, I'd find something, anything to pull him out. I would not, however, jump in because I cannot swim and we'd both die. I might die trying to save him... but I'd use the brain God gave me first and look for a stick, floating object, another swimmer, etc.

Diane

 

Absolutely not! The lake of fire is finality to the nth degree!

 

OK "learn something every day". I did not realize you put them IN the lake of fire and then get them "out" as if "they are not destroyed".

Matt 10


28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b ]

I assume you are re-thinking that as ..


28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are UNABLE to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is ABLE to destroy both soul and body in hell - but of course - would never actually do such a thing.


That way - the not-destroyed person can always leave whenever they repent - eh?

Have you considered that this "torture-till-you-convert" theme has already been exhausted by BOTH the RCC and the religion of Islam in the dark ages? Tried again in recent times via communism.

The "converts" that get "tortured into believing" are not there "out of love" - they just want the pain to "stop".

When Christ "paid for our sins" what did he really "pay for"? Was it "The amount of torture THAT WE would CHOOSE to endure before WE would choose to repent in the lake of fire"?

Hmm.

My "guess" is that you are searching for an answer to some "ugly questions" and have come up with the torture-till-you-repent as simply a more satisisfying alternative to a more horrible option - correct?


In Luke 12 Christ said that the slave that KNEW his master's will and still did deeds worthy of torment/punishment will get MANY lashes. Are you thinking that servant will "CHOOSE" many lashes?

In Christ,

Bob

 

It's a lot better answer than your idea that God loses and destroys about 99% of what He creates.

 

KenH,

I seek the same answers that you do as towards this temporary time limited torment.

I believed in universal salvation as well yet before I ever knew anyone else did, or there were a history of others who seeked the same viewpoint.

Yet, I do not carry the torture or torment into anyones afterlife. as the others of the beliefs of Universal salvation taught today.

hell and the lake of fire to me are simply concepts of enmity between the believer and their God as I comprehend them. in their present circumstances while still in their flesh. not waiting for in some afterlife.
(and of course, its my opinion)

Jesus paid for the penalty and punishment of Sin.

It Ended with his spiritual sacrifice. It ended with his physical sacrifice of His Body. theres nothing else man can offer. NO amount of pain and suffering will suffice if one believes its needed afterwards. spiritual or physical.

isnt that adding to the gospel.

unless one believes the sacrifice of Jesus was insufficient.

(or do we have to deal with our own punishment in hell and the lake of fire. something that simply postponed and we really have to deal with when we give up our own physical bodies.?)

who actually gets away without being punished for the sins they have committed.?

All, none, or.. maybe someone already provided complete reconciliation for Mankind and their God.

maybe He really did pay for the complete penalty.

think about Jesus standing and Knocking at the door of Our heart. This is an image of Mankind who now has the spirit of Jesus within them knocking on the door of Each of his brothers ans sisters heart.

until God becomes in our understanding. All in All.

wether we have to go into this imagination of Hell that They believe there in. or even this lake of fire. still more imaginations of being in enmity of their God.

we will be sent. If God is infinite Love

ever notice that scripture says that those who believe that Jesus is actually overcome this lake of fire (all enemies) are not hurt of the Lake. yet it didnt say that those believers wouldnt actually have to be in the Lake with their brothers and sisters and loved ones. yet they are. and they will remain until everyone has been rescued out of it.

didnt Jesus have to come to this world of Death to rescue us? is he still here?

Believe this, wherever Our fellow brothers and sisters find themselves in distress. Our Loving father will send us to rescue them. even if its in this "hell", or "lake of fire".

we're still knocking until all doors have been opened. thats infinite love

Me2

 

Matt 10


28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

That's real - real destruction of the real body AND soul IN hell fire.

Rev 14:10 is "REAL" as well
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, ""If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 ""And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.''


That "is REAL" - the Second "DEATH" of Rev 20 and Rev 21 - is "REAL".

Pretending that somehow this "doesnt really happen" - is not "faith" it is "presumption".

Ken - your argument is against BOTH the concept of Matt 7 that the "MANY" go to destruction vs the "FEW" to eternal life - AND AGAINST the fact that GOING to destruction MEANS the "Second Death" the "destruction of BOTH the body and the soul".

At one time - I thought you were only objecting to Matt 7.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That was before I was given a clearer understanding of the love of God for all of His creation, a love so great that He does not create 99% of it to be lost or destroyed forever and ever and ever. I have learned that God's love is inescapable and it is forever and He will wait as long as it takes for the prodigal son to come home to Him. God does not create knowing He will destroy almost all of what He created. No, I no longer charge God with doing such a thing as I did when I was a Calvinist and when I was a Pelagian/Arminian before that.

May God bless you, Bob.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

I would argue that the Matt 10 statement remains "true" and so also the Rev 14 statement above.

(And so also the Matt 7 statement about the many vs the few).

What your view misses is the obvious point that IF God had only the intention of 100% salvation - He could easily have sent Christ to die for Adam and Eve - on "day two" after the fall of Adam.

Then - "nobody is lost" and ALL of fallen humanity is "redeemed" - right there "on the spot".

If that were the "only goal" it had a "simple solution".

In Christ,

Bob