Local brew pub is host to nontraditional church

That's not what I said. I said that since Jesus drank wine and there is no biblical prohibition on the drinking of alcohol, then for a group of Christians, in a church, to drink beer is nothing to be alarmed about.

 

I do not recall in the NT a time that any Christian was drinking wine during a service or Jews drinking wine during a worship service in the synagogue.

 

I understand your argument but your responce was to HG who stated, paraphrasing, that a church isn't a group of people sitting around drinking beer and talking about social issues.

And please don't presume to speak from an authoritive stand point on whether Jesus drank fermented wine as a drink since you can find it nowhere in scripture that it says He did, it is an 'assumed' point of view. I'm not specifically stating here He did or did not. I'm just stating a fact that there is no scriptural passage which states He did.

Secondly I don't find anywhere in scripture where the church ever came together over a beer/wine. For myself. nor do I find that the church used it a means to reach the pagans who loved to drink and made the church more 'appealing' to them so they could share the gospel more easily.

However, and most importantly, the argument of whether christians should drink has been a much debated subject and was even an issue during apostles which some suppose it was not looked on as wrong back then but a natural part of life. Just look at Timothy, both pastor and teacher of the word of God and fellow-worker with Paul, who would not touch it, and had to have Pauls encouragement to drink just a little for medicinal purposes.

Yet Paul didn't remind Timothy that it was ok look we're all doing it nor did he state that Jesus did it don't worry about it and have a cold one on me. We need to remember these things because it is not as cut and dried as some seem to assume. We need to remember there are 3 that should determine whether we will do something (regardless of drinking or not)
1. Is the act of whatever a sin. If no, then the next one is to be answered:

2. The Stumbling block aspect - Is it something that is known to be an issue amoung your brothers and sisters (those with whom you enteract with) that isn't accepted. It is an issue that affects theirs and your spiritual relationship as a the body of Christ. There are those who ask the question - just how far do I have to go? The answer is summed up nicely in 1 John 3:16. If this one is good then the last question needs be answered:

3. How does the world view the activity you are engaging in. IOW- do they see you as being more like them than a child of God? Granted they have a distorted understanding of that concept but they do know where they stand and do they consider your activity as being just like them spiritually.

 

The whole communion thing might be worth taking a look at as an example of people consuming alcohol during a worship service.

During the Jewish Temple liturgy there was an aspect of wine intake too. Just some thoughts.

 

Acatully the priests were forbidden by God to not drink before nor during their service to Him with respect to the Temple comment you gave.

Secondly there is nothing that states wine was used for the Lords Supper at all times. I'm actaully about to state a thread on Timothy, who would not drink, and was Paul fellow-laborer, pastor and teacher. What kind of Lords supper happened there? Did he abstain and deny that which was commanded or was the Lords supper always or even at all using fermentated drink.

 

It is not an assumed point of view. It is a fact that wine will not keep unless it is fermented. If you have ever harvested grapes for wine you would quickly learn that they would rot in a very short time without fermenting. They begin to rot almost immediately in the sun.

Mostly in American Baptist Churches and not other churches but not so in many foreign Baptist Churches. Just ask some Christian foreign students about this. They do not understand what the noise is all about. some of the missionaries will tell you the same thing.

The man who led me to Christ pastored for several years in Germany and he told me that it was an offense to not participate. However o get drunk was taboo. I can remember the days when it was taboo for athletes to smoke but you could go to the local Southern Baptist Church and find a cloud above.

One of my professors from my seminary days at SWBTS is now pastoring in Germany and he said the same thing. Drinking is one of the things they do while fellowshipping with one another.

When I pastored in the south I saw more alcohol in the homes of Baptists than I ever did in the homes of Christians in wine country in CA where I grew up and where it was viewed as okay to have. I do not know of any of my friends whose parents were grape farmers who ever got drunk but many city kids did.

 

You are correct if you are novice or unlearned. However it doesn't take much research at all to pull up information from historical sourses which speak to being able to keep fruit juices from spoiling for weeks or even a few months, using different types of methods.

Again, this isn't entirely an accurate statement. I know some whom I went to school with at Southeastern in Wake Forest, NC who didn't drink nor did any of the churches they associated with. All this proves is that both here and abroad the issue is unresolved just as it was during the time of the apostles.

Yes, it is unfortunate that sometimes the culture dictates what a church does. Also how can it be an offence NOT to participate when we are commanded by scripture to partake only if we do it worthily. Are you meaning it was offensive to 'that' church if you don't drink alcohal??

I grew up in the South (GA. FL. TN. and AR) and will tell you that the majority of them would also tell you a 'good' christian shouldn't be doing it, just like I also know that some of them also smoked dope and would quickly tell you it's wrong.

Just because people have it and do it does not mean they consider it to be biblically part of the Christian life.

 

***Moderator note***

This thread concerns whether a "Pub"----Honky Tonk----Juke Joint----Beer Hall----------should be host to a "church" and has nothing to do with whether drinking of alcohol is considered "OK---Biblically"

Stay on subject

 

WHile I agree with you, part of the Thread regarding this 'church' is not only that it uses a place which serves alcohal to assemble but that they ALSO (as I understand it) drink their beers during their services.

However with due respect, I will go no further.

But FTR - I do not believe drinking alcohal is a sin, but I do believe there are other factors that need to be considered before one partakes.

 

I find your statements to be much the same thing as I heard an evangelism professor at SWBTS say that it is okay to lift scripture out of context when sharing our faith. He suggested that it is okay to do what the Moonies did--"heavenly deception".

I am a novice compared to vintners who do it for a living. My parents were grape farmers for several years.

To improve your knowledge I would suggest that you read some credible information beyond a preacher's sermon from the times of the temperance societies. Some good books are: the ISBE, TDNT, TDOT, and TWOT. With google nowadays it is easy to read how wine is made and how Welch's was made.

 

I agree. I cannot imagine that church attracting former alcoholics who struggle with the issue.

 

A glimpse of the message the Well at Billings is peddling, from its facebook discussion board:


"claims of absolutes are a passive aggressive way to attack those different from yourself"

"I do not understand why the church seems so hell bent on telling people they can be . . . born again"

"[Albert Mohler's] understanding of God is largely why we are seeing a down turn in christianity."

 

Weren't the Corinthians getting drunk during their worship gathering?

 

Yes. If I read the text right Paul addressed the party spirit as a problem. The rich were neglecting the poorer folks too. Imagine a church like that today!

 

I agree we need to reach out verses waiting for them to come in. Hyper-calvinism would disagree.

What is driving more away is the dogmatic, have-it-in for anyone who disagrees with the pastor.

Yes, sin should be exposed, but people and their feelings should be considered. It's a fine line between dealing with the sin of members and hanging out their dirty laundry for all to see.

some things just need to be dealt with privately and left that way.

Recently a man in our church has been "shacking up". he was approached by a deacon commity. The pastor talked with him and he refused to "move out of the situation".

As far as i knew this was NOT a matter of being in the public knowing about it, but only a few even knew.

we seem to expect people to bow to our arrogance and they will come back sorrowful and repenting; yeah, right! They end up getting hurt by the arrogant and self-awarding and are too ashamed to ever return.

They either are too embarassed to come back even if they do get right or they are just in plain rebellion and never come back.

What to do? Preach to them in love and without comprimise. Remove them from the role until they do repent, but for their sakes and ours, it's not expedient to rake them across the coals and stand agast at their dirty laundry.

The church should be a hospital for sin-sick souls, not a bully barn for macho preachers to boast their standards.

 

That is a total misconception of what Jesus drank.

Wine is a mocker, so you think Jesus intentionally mocked himself.

Don't be so naive.

This "church" is nothing more than man's attempt to engage in activities that please the flesh and a humanistic approach to doing it.

 

Sort of getting back on track,

I wonder why so many evangelicals presume that the lost need to come to faith already speaking correct language of Christianity and resolving all their questions about God without asking them.

This church (I do believe it is a church) seems to be intentionally trying to create space among sinners to reach them with the Gospel while doing so in a manner that keeps the religious leaders away. Sounds awfully like the approach of Christ.

Why do we believe that people can't have legitimate questions about faith and practice? Why do we expect the lost to act saved?

 

Nobody "mocks" anyone, nor is a brawler from drinking wine, but being drunk. You are falsely equating one with the other, and the text is in reference to drunkenness NOT drinking.

 

There is a process for handling these issues as layed out in Mathew 18. We do not have the option to pick and choose and personally decide to keep something private. Once repentance is refused in private it is to be brought before the church. There is no way around that and remain scriptural.

 

The problem is that hospitals often do little to promote a healthy lifestyle through accountability. They may give out information but do little to hold people accountable. Their focus is to deal with the sick not those who live a life of healthy living. Someone in the church must approach people and teach them what a healthy Christian looks like by personally discipling them and helping them to mature in such a way that they know what a healthy Christian looks like and does.