"Logic" and Bible versions

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Mexdeaf, Apr 21, 2010.

  1. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
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    Why is it considered "logical" that there MUST be ONE "perfect" translation in English (or any other language, for that matter) NOW- when for approximately 200-300 years (dating from the time of Christ) there was no composite "translation" at all, yet people were saved, and churches planted? Were those Christians worldly or carnal because they did not have a "perfect" translation?
     
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Listening to a church history class on iTunes U and have never thought about that truth until then. Good question.
     
  3. Winman

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    How do you know what they had? All of the books of the New Testament had to exist, and it seems very probable that accurate copies were made and sent to the various churches. In fact, there is much evidence for this. While it was not compiled into one Bible as we have today they had the scriptures.
     
  4. Jim1999

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    The first five books of the Bible were passed on by word of mouth and then written by the recognized authors to become the written word. I am not ignoring the fact that God guided those words, but we must accept that man still conveyed the truths, including the misconceptions that developed even among God's chosen people.

    So often, we tend to make eternal truth and doctrines even from the errors of those people. Consistency of thought and principle is the key to scriptural accuracy and doctrinal truth, and not how accurate the translation. We never concoct a doctrine from one verse, but the multitude of verses conveying the same thought.

    Paul was constantly correcting false teaching in his writing. These letters were copied and passed along from church to church, so they did have the Word, but not all of scripture.

    This is also why it is so important to understand the language, the culture and local ideas in the original churches, to arrive at the Word of God, then and for to-day.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  5. Winman

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    That is not true or scriptural. The first five books were written by Moses under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

    2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


    God commanded his prophets to write his exact words, not to add to them or diminish from them.

    Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

    Correcting false doctrine is not the same thing as correcting scripture. It is true that some did alter and corrupt the scriptures, the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus being prime examples. But there were always accurate copies, or else God did not preserve his words as he promised to do.

    Isa 30:8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

    1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
    25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


    God didn't promise to preserve a message or concept, he promised to preserve his "words".

    Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
     
    #5 Winman, Apr 21, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2010
  6. preachinjesus

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    History, accurate history.

    We've got a very reliable record of those times, specifically about the formulation of the Canon.

    Two points here:
    1. Well at some point they had to not exist. Do you really believe that upon His resurrection Jesus left the New Testament to His disciples?

    2. The canonization process was a dynamic one. No NT book existed within five years of the resurrection. They were written and crafted over some time. It is a beautiful process, but it too time. The actual canon wasn't formalized until c. 397 so there was a deliberate process in place.

    They had parts but not the whole. There was a lot of documentation circulating around the region and being reviewed and tested. The early church developed the canonization process to weed out the bad, test the good, and accept the inspired.

    Besides the "Bible" for the first 150 years of the Church was the OT.

    It sort of goes along with suggesting that you have to have a Bible in order to be a Christian. This is not a standard nor a privilege most Christians have enjoyed in history. We are a fortunate lot. Yet most Christians have not had that privilege (and many still do not.)
     
  7. Winman

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    Yes, and they support the texts used for the KJV, not the modern versions. One of the strongest arguments against the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus is a lack of continuity. They exist at a single point of time, there were not like texts found before or after them, while the texts supporting the TR can be found throughout history.

    What kind of argument is that? Of course they didn't exist yet, they were written afterwards by the apostles.

    I agree with this, the various books were not canonized into a single book like we have today. But all the books did exist at this time, and accurate copies were made and distributed among the various churches. Did every church have every book? Probably not, but that does not mean the complete word of God did not exist and was preserved.

    Well, you must have at least heard the gospel and trusted Christ whether it be through preaching or the scriptures.

    But what has this got to do with preservation? Just because all Christians did not have every word of God does not mean every word existed and was preserved.
     
  8. Thinkingstuff

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    Note terms used
    and
    in fact there were various canons depending on where you were. Canon didn't happen until the 4th century.
     
  9. Winman

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    What does that have to do with preservation? The accurate books existed. It is true there were many false books circulating, the KJV translators had to consider many books that were "supposed" scripture that they rejected. They had very strict tests to determine which texts were genuine and which were not.
     
  10. Thinkingstuff

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    Do you then hold to inspiration via dictation? Else how was the information in genesis maintianed for 400 years while in Egypt? Either orally or dictation.

    Sounds like dictation to me. Yet how about books like psalms? Or the History books? all of it dictation? Or did God inspire men in their context with their abilities and knowledge to pass on his words?

    You make an accusation with out providing support. In fact in both Vaticanus and Sinaticus differences in passages were not purposely omited or changed as you suggest. Transcription errors do exist. But note in comparative OT text to Dead Sea Scrolls we find sinaticus a closer translation. It sounds like you have a serious issue with just these two text which means you are in favor of a later text Alexandratus which corrupted copies of the byzantine text Stephanus and Erasimus used to loosely fit together from the latin back into the greek miniscule the source text for the TR. Unfortunately, these have their transcription problems as well and no, the translators in 1611 are no more inspired than hort. Your contention here
    is moot since it begs the question if you understand what perserving his words actually means. then it also begs the questions which ones. And without the autographs what authority do you rely on? King James of England?
     
  11. Thinkingstuff

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    It has everything to do with it. All the books may have been written but no singular accepted "library of books" was commonly accepted by all the churches. Which is why there are listings of different "canons" in the 3rd Century. So a church in ephusus may use all of Pauls letters but exclude 1 Peter and Revelation accepting most of the LXX and 1 Clement while the church in Hippo may inlcude 1 Peter but also accept Hermas. I don't think things were as clearly defined as you might imagine back in those days.
     
  12. MB

    MB
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    Hi Mexdeaf;
    Perfection is a goal and we strive for it even in our walk with the Lord. His word is our communication from God. I certainly want the best I can have. None of us are perfect and this is most likely why we do not have a pefect Bible. I do know this. If I can convince a Jehovah's Witness that Christ is actually God Himself from his own corrupt text then we all have to admit God's word will shine through all the mistakes. It certainly did before Bible ownership was available to the common man.
    MB
     
  13. Winman

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    What if it was? What does that have to do with scripture?

    It was dictation.

    Exo 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
    28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.


    That should be settled now.

    I have provided support in other threads. Yesterday I gave a link for some sermons by Pastor D. A. Waite, in which he discusses this in some detail. For instance, he discusses Mark 16:9-20 which is left out of the V/S. He shows that at least 19 early church fathers either wrote directly from this passage or alluded to it, which demonstrates this passage was in the original texts. Now, I will provide that link again, but it is not my responsibility to educate you.

    http://www.deanburgonsociety.org/idx_videos_wayside_bc.htm

    #3 is the one I believe where he speaks on this. You might want to forward past the first 10 minutes or so as that is introductions, singing and the like, these were taken from actual church services.

    These sermons are a little long, but if you are really interested in the facts are well worth watching. Pastor Waite was a pastor for over 20 years before he came to believe only the KJV used the accurate texts. He had been taught otherwise at Dallas Theological Seminary, and he simply believed what he was taught. He is not a 7th Day Adventist, he is a Baptist preacher. But from study he came to believe the MVs originate in corrupt texts and has spent his life since then fighting for the KJV. He is not a fanatic and opposes some (you know the names) who go overboard on this issue.
     
  14. Thinkingstuff

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    The exodus passage is a poor indicator for the entire scripture for a couple of reasons. God himself wrote the Ten Commandments. Note also this is specific to the Law ie all the laws associated with what God Wanted of his people. this does not necissarily include aspects of Genesis, Numbers, Parts of exodus and parts of Deuteronomy. Note with inspiration I believe this person to hold a good wholistic view for the bible student.
     
  15. Mexdeaf

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    I certainly agree with you. The Word is God's to use and preserve and no degree of intentional nor unintentional corruption on the part of man can prevent Him.
     
  16. Winman

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    Look, I showed you from scripture where Moses spent 40 days and nights fasting with the Lord writing the words he was commanded. The Jews themselves have said Moses was the author of the first five books for centuries. Believe what you want.

    Oh, if you go fast forward to about 30 minutes in video 3 Pastor Waite goes into great detail about the great evidence for Mark 16:9-20 which the W-H texts omit, and shows there was much evidence for it dating before the V/S.
     
    #16 Winman, Apr 21, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2010
  17. Thinkingstuff

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    Look I commented on the text itself and what it actually said. I can show you many errors in the KJV as well. Both contain transcription errors. Period.
     
  18. Winman

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    I showed you where the scriptures themselves show God commanded Moses what to write. You come back and say God wrote the Ten Commandments. You are correct, God did, and they put these stone tablets in the Ark of the Covenant later. But Moses also wrote scriptures for the people which did not go into the Ark which included the Ten Commandments and the book of Genesis.

    Exo 24:4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

    God spoke of the creation account when he gave the Ten Commandments.

    Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    Again, believe what you want.
     
  19. Winman

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    When Jesus spoke of the scriptures, he always mentioned Moses first. Why? Because Moses wrote the first scriptures.

    Matt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

    Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Jesus expounded to these disciples in "all" the scriptures beginning with Moses. Why? Because Moses was the beginning of the scriptures.
     
  20. Thinkingstuff

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    There is no doubt Moses was the first to commit scripture to writing. The question is how much of it was based on dictation and how much is not?
     

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