"Lord" left out of modern translations in Luke

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Revmitchell, Apr 28, 2013.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. (KJV)

    Luk 23:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." (ESV)

    Does anyone know why the word "Lord" would be left out in this verse in many modern translations?

    Do you find this to be a problem?
     
  2. Deacon

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    It's simply a matter of translation from the different textual sources.
    Luke 23:42
    Byzantine: “And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”
    Alexandrian: “Then he said, Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

    Does it matter?
    MY OPINION (super short view): The Byzantine text type better reinforces the orthodoxy of the church – it's been refined.
    The Alexandrian text is more difficult but probably closer to the way it was originally written.
    Both adequately express God's word.

    Rob

     
  3. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr.
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    Are You REALLY Prepared To Say......

    Rob....Who taught you that?? Are you really prepared to say that the Holy Spirit taught you that? Anything that denies Jesus as Lord must be questioned. It is a question of authority. I just think you need to think about it. I don't wish to engage in an argument....so I won't.

    Bro.Greg:saint:
     
  4. annsni

    annsni
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    Who says that the NIV, ESV or any other version denies that Jesus is Lord? If that is what these Bibles do, they do it in a very poor way.

    Matthew 17:4 'Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

    Matthew 18:21 "Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”"

    Matthew 20:30 "Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!”"

    Mark 16:19 "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God."

    Luke 5:8 "When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus’ knees and said, “Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!”"

    Luke 5:12 "While Jesus was in one of the towns, a man came along who was covered with leprosy. When he saw Jesus, he fell with his face to the ground and begged him, “Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean.”:

    Luke 7:6 "So Jesus went with them. He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof."

    Luke 10:1 "After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go."

    Luke 11:1 "One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”

    Luke 22:49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?”

    Luke 24:3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.

    John 11:3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”

    John 11:21 "“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died.

    John 11:32 When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”

    John 13:25 Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, “Lord, who is it?”

    John 13:36 Simon Peter asked him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.”

    John 14:5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

    John 20:2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”

    John 21:7 Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, “It is the Lord,” he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water.

    John 21:12 Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” None of the disciples dared ask him, “Who are you?” They knew it was the Lord.

    John 21:15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”

    John 21:16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”

    John 21:17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.

    John 21:20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”)

    That's just the Gospels. There are over 130 more verses that have both "Jesus" and "Lord" in the verses - clearly showing that the NIV stands on Jesus being Lord. I don't see any denial in there at all.
     
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    Uh...I am only speaking of one single verse. I care not about the others. I would add it does not impress me that Lord is in other verses. If in fact it belongs in this verse that could be a problem.
     
  6. annsni

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    So that begs the question - What is the textual heritage of "Lord" being in the verse?
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    That is exactly my consideration here.
     
  8. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
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    The New King James has the word, Lord, in Luke 23:42, but also a footnote that word is not in the NU texts:

     
  9. Deacon

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    A noteable site where you can easily examine the various manuscript data is LaParola [LINK]


    You can set it up the site to view the data by date or by text type.
    You do need to know some basic Greek - but if you have an interlinear bible you could probably wade your way through the data.
    A familiarity with the abbreviations wouldn't hurt but you can look them up individually by following the links.



    και ελεγεν τω ιησου μνησθητι μου κυριε οταν ελθης εν τη βασιλεια σου (TR1550MR)

    καὶ ἔλεγεν• Ἰησοῦ, μνήσθητί μου ὅταν ἔλθῃς εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν (NA28)

    THE FOLLOWING ARE MAJOR TEXTUAL VARIANTS IN RED, FOLLOWED BY THE MANUSCRIPTS - EARLIEST ONES FIRST
    Luke 23:42 Variant readings by date

    ἔλεγεν, Ἰησοῦ, μνήσθητί μου]p75 copsa(mss) copbo(pt) *א B C* L WH Riv CEI Nv TILC NM NR

    ἔλεγεν τῷ Ἰησοῦ, μνήσθητί μου, κύριε,] (copsa(mss)) (copbo(pt)) it vg A C2 W syr (070) Ψ Θ 33 ς Dio ND f1 f13 Byz

    στραφεὶς πρὸς τὸν κύριον εἶπεν αὐτῷ, μνήσθητί μου] D

    ὅταν ἔλθῃς ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ σου] Origengr copsa copbo Eusebius Asterius *א ita syrs Cyril-Jerusalem Epiphanius Maximus A C Q W itb syrc syrp arm geo 070 syrpal itq syrh E Ψ G H K Δ Θ Π 063 33 565 892 Lect slavmss 1424 X 1079 28 700 1006 1216 1243 1195 1230 157 180 1010 1071 1241 1344 1365 1505 1646 597 1009 1242 1292 1546 1342 2148 2174 205 1253 ς f1 f13 Byz

    ὅταν ἔλθῃς εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν σου] p75 Origenlat B vg Hilary Ambrose Jerome Augustine ite itff2 itf eth? itaur itr1 L itl slavmss itc WH NA

    ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ σου ὅταν ἔλθῃς] (Gregory-Nyssa) (Chrysostom) (Proclus) (Hesychius) 579

    ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῆς ἐπελεύσεως σου] D itd

    NOW YOUR TASK - SHOULD YOU CHOOSE TO ACCEPT IT - WOULD BE TO SUPPLY THE DATES OF THE VARIOUS MANUSCRIPTS.

    Rob
     
    #9 Deacon, Apr 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2013
  10. annsni

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    It's all Greek to me!! :tongue3:

    I really need to take some Greek and learn more about textual criticism!! I think it would be really interesting for stuff like this!
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    the thief was NOT dening the Lord IF he said what the CT stated here, its just that he was adressing jesus as a King, and to a jew, the ONLY King that he knew as such to offer eternal life was the messiah, so at least would becalling jesus as his messiah! which would mean saviour to him, so we are disagreeing on semetics here!
     
  12. Rippon

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    It seems that this thread should be in the bible translations forum. It doesn't make any sense to me in this setting.
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Not unless one is claiming " rrevelation" on it!
     

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