Lordship’s Salvation: Not by Works?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lou Martuneac, Aug 1, 2008.

  1. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Dear BB Readers:

    In this article I am going to document (author and source) another example that proves Lordship Salvation conditions eternal life on a lost man’s upfront commitment to perform works. I want you to notice that this carefully documented and the meaning of the citations is clear. I encourage all readers to read these citations objectively without any preconceived notions or feelings toward or about who the writer is. Just read objectively and as you read ask yourself: Is this how the lost are born again?

    In Matthew 19:16-22 when the rich young ruler approached Christ, he asked, “Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” That “good thing” is works. In commenting on this passage, John MacArthur writes,
    That citation is from the 1994-revised and expanded edition of The Gospel According to Jesus. It is a revision of what John MacArthur wrote in the original edition, which was:
    From his book Hard to Believe MacArthur wrote:
    From the quotes from three of MacArthur’s LS books you can see that he is speaking of how he believes a lost man is born again. In Hard to Believe MacArthur is detailing what he considers the “requirement(s) for eternal life,” how to be born again.

    Using the rich young ruler to illustrate his Lordship gospel FOR salvation, MacArthur says the requirement FOR eternal life is a willingness to, “forsake all, submit to the Lord,” give it all up if He asks.

    IMO, there is no doubt and NO misunderstanding that this is a message that calls on the lost for an upfront commitment to perform the kinds of behavior expected of a born again Christian.

    The results of salvation must never be the requirement FOR salvation. Lordship Salvation, however, IS a promise of performance for the promise of eternal life message that corrupts “the simplicity that is in Christ” (2 Cor. 11:3) and frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21).

    Again, I encourage all readers to carefully and objectively consider how John MacArthur defines the way he believes the lost must be born again. Is salvation conditioned on a commitment, a “willingness to forsake everything?” Or is salvation by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work?


    LM
     
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd
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    From The Gospel According to Jesus 20th anniversary edition.


    The Savior called for nothing short of complete regeneration. Without such a spiritual rebirth,...no one has any hope of eternal life. (p.52)”

    Regeneration is no option, but rather an absolute necessity…..salvation is impossible apart from divinely wrought regeneration.” (p.58)

    NOT BY WORKS!

    Conversion is a divine miracle, and there are no formulas that can bring it about or explain it.” (p.105)

    NOT BY WORKS!

    He was saved by faith, not by works. But the works were important evidence that his faith was real.” (p106)

    NOT BY WORKS!

    This is the purpose of salvation: to transform an individual completely. Genuine saving faith changes behavior, transforms thinking, and puts within a person a new heart.” (p.106)

    “…the necessary result of God’s saving work is a transformed person. When a soul is redeemed, Christ gives a new heart (cf. Ezek. 36:26). Implicit in that change of heart is a new set of desires—a desire to please God, to obey, and to reflect His righteousness. If such a change does not occur, there is no reason to think genuine salvation has taken place.” (p.107)

    NOT BY WORKS!

    Salvation occurs when God changes the heart and the unbeliever turns from sin to Christ…..Thus conversion is not simply a sinner’s decision for Christ; it is first the sovereign work of God in transforming the individual” (p. 116)

    NOT BY WORKS!

    The Savior emphasized that God Himself is the determinative factor in salvation.” (p.117)

    NOT BY WORKS!

    Salvation occurs when a heart is humbled by a sovereign God who reveals His truth.”(p.121)

    NOT BY WORKS!

    Salvation is by grace through faith. It has nothing to do with meritorious human works. But the only possible response to God’s grace is a broken humility that causes the sinner to turn from his old life to Christ. The evidence of such a turning is the willingness to submit and obey.” (p.122)

    NOT BY WORKS!

    And on and on it goes. For anyone who cares to know the truth, John MacArthur clearly and repeatedly teaches that salvation is not by human works, but is completely work of Almighty God.

    Lou Martuneac is intellectually dishonest and should not be considered a serious scholar, writer, blogger, or contributor to the BB.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #2 canadyjd, Aug 2, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2008
  3. webdog

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    Since Macarthur bases everything off of pre faith regeneration, his entire position is faulty. There is no foundation.
     
  4. canadyjd

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    He believes scripture teaches pre-faith regeneration. If you disagree, then go to scripture and show that he is wrong.

    It is intellectually dishonest to say MacArthur believes and teaches a "works-based" salvation, when he clearly believes and teaches salvation is completely a work of Almighty God.

    No matter how many times Lou Martuneac makes the claim, it will not change that fact.

    To continue to make that claim only demonstrates with irrefrutable evidence that Lou Martuneac is intellectually dishonest and should not be considered a serious scholar, writer, blogger, or contributor to the BB.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  5. EdSutton

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    Regardless of the apparent pre-occupation of Lou Martuneac with John MacArthur, or the personal opinion, be it the admiration or the distaste of canadyjd or EdSutton about Dr. MacArthur (or Lou Martuneac), (or even the personal opinions of EdSutton and canadyjd about each other, for that matter) I would suggest that post #1 above is little, if any more "intellectually dishonest" than is this one where canadyjd has injected the interpreting words "NOT BY WORKS!" eight times into commenting on the ten selected quotes, here, where Dr. MacArthur, had used these words in but two of them.

    Dr. MacArthur has used some telling 'buzz-words' and phrases in these quotes, as well, which are being 'missed', by this pre-occupation with "who is getting it right", concerning his position, IMO.

    I am concerned with (and may well disagree with the sometimes unstated implications of) some words, phrases, and sentences of Dr. MacArthur, such as
    Remember, all the above quotes are the words of Dr. MacArthur, not my spin, or anyone else's, on them.

    No. 1 implies that "regeneration precedes faith', a position consistent with Calvinism (or at least 'hyper-Calvinism'), but one that I reject completely. webdog has just pointed this out, as well as Lou Martuneac, previously elsewhere.

    No. 2 implies the same as No. 1, as well as touches on the misdefined word 'repent' as meaning 'repentance from sin' which I have also previously posted about here, where I received little comment, FTR

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1269347&postcount=111

    and here.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1125895&postcount=30

    (Multiple posts on this thread, FTR.)

    No. 3 despite the multiple protestations posted by others elsewhere, says that it is "the requirement for eternal life is to give it all (worldly posessions) up...". "Requirement" seems pretty self-explanatory, IMO. I do not agree that this is a Biblical requirement for one to receive salvation, in fact, one's worldy possessions (or lack of the same) is not even an issue. The rich man in Luke was lost, because he did not hear and believe "Moses and the prophets", not because he was rich. Job and Solomon, whose wealth would have no doubt made him a pauper, by comparison, were saved persons, as was the beggar Lazarus. In our own day, R. G. LeTorneau and J. C. Penney were billionaires who were saved, and afterwards found out they could not out-give God, even while keeping the tithe for themselves and givng God the other 90%. Incidentally, J. C. Penney could often be found at his stores with a broom sweeping the sidewalks and aisles, while the employees were doing 'store work'.

    End of Part one.
     
  6. EdSutton

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    Part 2

    No.4 is perhaps the most troubling (as well as perhaps the most misleading) of the quotes, IMO. What exactly is meant by "meritorious human works"? I believe what Dr. MacArthur is saying is effectively the same thing as was said by the late Dr. John H. Gerstner, who I would say, held to a similar theology to that of Dr. MacArthur, and said this, in opposition to what Prof. Zane C. Hodges had written in The Gospel Under Siege in these quotes.
    I believe that Prof. Hodges sums this up well, and I agree with him here, when he writes these words.
    There is absolutely no difference for Paul (or any other Biblical writer) between "meritorious works" for salvation or "non-meritorious works" as included and implicit in the definition of faith for salvation. Salvation is "by grace, through faith, and not of works...," then one start the service of discipleship. Discipleship does not precede (or bring) salvation, as the example of Judas shows us.

    How seriously one should take Lou Martuneac or anyone else, for that matter, is something else entirely, but is not relevant to the two legitimate questions he asked in the OP.
    To paraphrase one regarding salvation- "Commitment had nothing to do with it!"

    Well, my commitment, anyway. It was God's pleasure and commitment that is involved in my salvation, here, not mine. (I Cor. 1:21)

    I believe salvation to be entirely by grace through faith in Christ, as I have shown.

    Ed
     
    #6 EdSutton, Aug 2, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2008
  7. webdog

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    Deja-vu...been there, done that. Since Scripture teaches regeneration by faith...you have 66 books to look through :)
     
  8. TCGreek

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    Conclusion: I'm in agreement, and I'm a hard-nose 5-point calvinist. :thumbs:
     
  9. Marcia

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    Does this quote refer to works before or after salvation? I can't imagine it's works before salvation; I would have a problem with that.
     
  10. canadyjd

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    John MacArthur was referring to the work of Almighty God in bringing about the transformation of these people. If it is a work of God (as MacArthur consistently maintains), then it is not the work of men to earn their salvation as has been alledged by Lou Martuneac. It is "NOT BY WORKS!" and I am accurate in saying so.
    If Lou Martuneac has acknowledged elsewhere (and he has) that MacArthur believes regeneration precedes faith, how can he honestly make the claim that MacArthur believes and teaches a person must do anything to be "born again"?

    What MacArthur is speaking of in those quotes is the appropriation of eternal life by God-given faith that resulted from the God-given work of Holy Spirit in bringing the person to faith. He believes God-given faith will always include a commitment to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Anything less will be defective.

    You don't have to agree. Lou Martuneac doesn't have to agree. Canadyjd doesn't have to agree.

    If you disagree, at least be honest enough to accurately state what the man believes.

    To say MacArthur believes a man must make a commitment to Christ to be "born again", is not honestly and accurately stating what MacArthur believes and teaches, since he clearly believes a man is regenerated prior to faith.
    EdSutton, here is what MacArthur said.
    The requirement for eternal life is not giving up your posessions to earn salvation, it is about being in submission to Christ as Lord of your life. The requirement is obedience to what Jesus asks you to do. Thus "He might not ask, but the requirement for eternal life is the willingness to give it all up if he does".

    You don't have to agree. At least attempt to be accurate and honest in stating what the man believes and teaches.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  11. canadyjd

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    MacArthur is referring to Zaccheus from Luke 19. He is speaking of what he did after he believed and was saved.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  12. canadyjd

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    Should be easy for you to find, since you're the one making the claim.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  13. webdog

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    Luk_7:50 And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

    Luk_8:12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

    Joh_10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

    Act_16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

    Rom_4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring--not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

    Rom_10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom_10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

    Rom_10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

    Eph_2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

    Eph_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

    2Th_2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

    2Th_2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

    Here's a couple :)
     
    #13 webdog, Aug 2, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2008
  14. canadyjd

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    Beautiful. You have demonstrated salvation is appropriated by faith. I am in hearty agreement.

    You didn't quote a single verse concerning regeneration, however.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  15. webdog

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    Salvation is appropriated (seized) by faith? :confused: Passing from death to life is due to faith, hence regeneration (passing from death to life) is due to faith. If you don't see regeneration in any of the verses I supplied, you have seriously gone too far in interpreting Scripture using theology!
     
  16. canadyjd

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    No need to insult me. I thought we were debating well. I have not heard regeneration defined as "passing from death to life." Regeneration seems to be more of a process of transformation. I can see that the end result of regeneration would be the appropriation of salvation by faith, and thus the coming of the indwelling Spirit, and spiritually passing from death to life.

    I don't think you are addressing regeneration, however, in those passages.

    There are passages that specifically speak to regeneration. Why not quote those?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  17. webdog

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    I wasn't being insulting, I seriously feel you read theology into Scripture. Anybody that holds to pre-faith regeneration, I believe this of.

    We can't "see" regeneration, btw :)

    There is only one passage with the word "regeneration", and that is in Titus speaking of baptism, the result of regeneration.
     
    #17 webdog, Aug 2, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2008
  18. canadyjd

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    He is refering to the baptism of Holy Spirit, according to God's mercy, which "saves us", being poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ.

    Did you see any mention of faith there, BTW?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  19. webdog

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    5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

    It starts out saying "He saved us". We know that salvation is through faith. If you can't see that, I don't know what else to say. If we are saved by regeneration prior to faith, faith is moot! Beleivers are baptised by the Holy Spirit upon regeneration, this passage speaks of washing OF regeneration (clearly baptistm).
     
  20. canadyjd

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    Without trying to put theology into the passage, just read what it says.

    He saved us...., by His own mercy, by washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

    Unless you hold to baptismal regeneration, you have to see the connection between salvation and regeneration and renewal of Holy Spirit.

    peace to you:praying:
     

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