"Lordship Salvation" answers

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Isaiah40:28, Feb 6, 2008.

  1. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    Your use of ellipses in your selective quoting of John MacArthur does not lend credibility to your question which you so earnestly desire people to answer.

    Who truly comes to Christ with the intention of holding back some sin to be hidden and toyed with secretly(as if it were possible)all the while claiming to have confessed all sin and be saved?

    John MacArthur's understanding of the gospel is that sinners who desire to be saved are under the conviction of the Holy Spirit and thus rightly desire to turn away from sin and turn to Christ for salvation. No sinner who is truly desiring salvation will be willfully keeping some sins back for personal enjoyment and pleasure.
    Just like no bride who truly loves her husband and has surrendered her single life in marriage to him entertains the thought of perhaps maintaining a boyfriend on the side. No way!
    When a wife marries her husband, she pledges to remain faithful and fully intends to do so.
    Future sins may occur and for a time, interrupt those intentions, of course, but on her wedding day she intends to give herself to that man alone, no other committment is desired.
    That is the picture of a sinner embracing Christ.
    That is the gospel.
    We as Christ's bride pledge ourselves to Him, fully intending to live faithful to Him forever, not planning and waiting to give some to another on the side.
     
  2. swaimj

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    Is confessing all sin also a requirement for salvation?
     
  3. Amy.G

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    No. God does not disqualify us if we have a bad memory. What matters is our grief over the fact that we have sinned against God.
     
  4. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    Good answer Amy.
    I couldn't have stated it better.
     
  5. swaimj

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    Isaiah 40, you used the phrase "confessed all sin" in your statement defending Lordship salvation and then you agreed that it is not necessary to confess all sin. Why did you use that phrase?
     
  6. skypair

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    I like your marriage paradigm of salvation. I only wish more would receive it!

    skypair
     
  7. Isaiah40:28

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    Where did I agree it was not necessary to confess all sin?
    Amy simply said that God does not hold our forgetfulness against us. I agreed.
     
  8. swaimj

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    Isaiah 40:28, here is the exchange:

    I asked "Is confessing all sin a requirement for salvation?" I asked this because you seemed to have indicated that is was necessary.

    Amy answered "No. God does not disqualify us if we have a bad memory. What matters is our grief over the fact that we have sinned against God."

    You agreed with her.

    There are three parts to her answer. The first part is the simple statement "no". I don't see how you can state that a person must confess all sin and then when asked to clarify, agree with a negative response. The second part is "God does not disqualify us if we have a bad memory". This is an exception to what you said earlier and I don't see how I can come to any other conclusion but that you are disagreeing with yourself. The third part is "what matters is our grief over the fact that we have sinned against God." It is far different to be sorry for our sins as a group than to be required to confess each one that we have ever committed individually which is what your original statement seemed to require. With these three statements together, we are quite a ways away from your original statement that every sin ever committed has to be confessed.
     
  9. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    ok, you've dived into these statements much deeper than I intended. Let me clarify.
    In my OP, my use of the phrase "confess all sin" was intended to convey that we should be unreserved in our confession of sin. We should not have an area that we intentionally hold back from God. No one is able to exactly recount each and every sin before God, instead we should be willing to confess each sin that He brings to mind, which is what I meant by "all sin". All known sin.
    I never used the phrase "every sin ever committed", so I don't think that was the way my statement was required to read.
    However, thank you for the opportunity to clarify my statements.
     
  10. pinoybaptist

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    ETERNAL salvation required NOTHING from the sinner. It required EVERYTHING of Christ on behalf of the sinner. That is GRACE in all its beauty, simplicity, and purity.
    Those whom God chose in Christ, saved in and through Christ, whom Christ redeemed with His blood, and for whom He hung up on that cross at Calvary, are ALL OVER this fallen world, lived in EVERY generation, even before the generation that Jehovah revealed Himself to Israel as the God who created everything, and will continue to do live ALL OVER this fallen world and in EVERY generation until the Judge of all mankind returns.

    The eternal salvation of His people had no demands or requirements other than the mercy of God. This eternal salvation is all OF the Lord, all BY the Lord, and all FROM the Lord.

    It did not require repentance because if it did the great multitude spoken of in Revelation 7:9 may not be numbered by man, but they will no longer be said to be of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.

    Why ?

    Because repentance as a requirement for eternal salvation did not appear until man-made gospels appeared. Check out this principle. God called Abraham out of a multitude of people existing on earth in his time. Did Abraham perform anything out of the ordinary before God called him ? By all indications, he was an idol worshipper until he met the living God. What quality was in Abraham beforehand ? Don't tell me he had inborn, ingrained faith because he did not display faith until he was in communion with the living God, and even then he lied to save his life.

    Out of Abraham came Israel, whom God called his chosen people, and was repentance required before one became an Israelite, among God's chosen national people ? Absolutely none. You were BORN an Israelite, whether you liked it or not, whether you understood it or not.

    HOWEVER, the Jews' circumcision signified they were set apart in the service of the Lord and that they were God's people AND FOR THAT reason they were to serve the Lord and to choose the Lord.

    They did that NOT TO BECOME Jews but BECAUSE they are Jews.


    If repentance were a requirement to eternal salvation and to belonging to God's people, then God began saving people only AFTER the cross, at the most, or AFTER creating Israel out of one man, Abraham, at the least.

    It is AFTER one learns of the FACT of his FINISHED salvation thru no merit of his own that repentance is required, and where blessing as a result of obedience is a reality to the sinner.

    "I have done this for you, though you did not deserve it, because I had mercy on you, though you do not deserve it, now, SERVE ME".

    And service to the Living God, in the midst of this evil generation, is reasonable, beneficial, and an affirmation of His Lordship over the life of the saved sinner.

    Lordship of Christ is not a requirement for eternal salvation, it is the RESULT of eternal salvation, and results in TIMELY salvation for the sinner is preserved in his walk on this fallen earth.

    So, are we going to say, "yeah, well, thanks, but you know, Paul, we need to repent first, because 'til we do Christ's death ain't worth nuthin', ole boy".
     
    #10 pinoybaptist, Feb 7, 2008
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  11. swaimj

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    Isaiah 40:28 said:
    Thank you for your reply. I think that I agree with what you mean. However, allow me a little critique. Your original statement was "confes all sin". When pressed you backed off and explained that you meant [confess]"all known sin". There is a huge difference between what you originally said and what you actually meant. Frainkly, I think that a good deal of the disagreement between LS advocates and non-LS advocates is a problem of LS advocates overstating what they mean. LS advocates say that a person must commit every area of life to Christ's Lordship at the point of salvation. Actually, a person can no more do this at salvation than they can "confess all sin" at salvation. If a person could commit every area of life to Christ at the point of salvation, there would be no need for progressive sanctification. If LS advocates would tone down their language and clarify their meaning I think some common ground could be found.
     
  12. skypair

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    Pinoy,

    You seem to have a nuanced perspective of "repentance," sir. Repentance IS required for salvation. See Acts 2:39 under "what must we do [to be saved]."

    But by your definition, turning from sins, you'd be right. You leave out the real meaning of repentance, however, TURNING TO GOD! And THAT has been a requirement of salvation since Adam! If you are practicing or teaching anything other than this, I pray you get on your knees right now and obey (Which is what Abram did to become the man of God that he was. Had he NOT left out of Ur, he would not have been saved, friend.). For us, obedience means believing on His Son and turning to Him.

    skypair
     
  13. pinoybaptist

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    I do not want to derail this thread, skypair. So if you wish to show that eternal salvation has a pre-requisite, and that the pre-requisite is repentance, then you might want to start another thread on that, and if you treat me like a friend, since you referred to me as such, then I might even participate in the discussion.

    My own stand is that the Savior saved those whom the Father had given Him, and whose names are in the Book of Life, with NO prerequisites.

    Please bear in mind that unlike you, I believe eternal salvation to be entirely and distinctly separate from doctrinal and practical salvation here in time.

    Eternal salvation is free, absolutely unconditional on the part of the sinner, and entirely by grace.

    Timely salvation is conditional. An IF YOU, then I WILL, kind of salvation.

    Therein is repentance, which is basically a change of mind, required.

    Jesus is Lord, has always been and will always be Lord.

    Whether one professes Him as Lord or not will not diminish that truth.

    If one were to profess Christ as his Savior and Lord, then speaks and lives contrary to what he professed, then he lied, and walks in darkness. I think that is what John Mc'Arthur means.
     
    #13 pinoybaptist, Feb 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2008
  14. Isaiah40:28

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    TBH, I think you are nit-picking and I'm not sure why.
    Do you disagree with the OP or what?
    You are arguing that there is a difference between what I said and what I meant.
    I believe you have consistently misinterpretated my statements in this thread.
    In the OP, I showed the idea of fully committing oneself to God contrasted with the idea of intentionally holding back. Fully confessing all sin as opposed to reserving some sin for future pleasures. That was the contrast. If you thought I meant that we are required to remember and confess each and every sin in order for God to forgive us, then you read it wrong. You continue to force that meaning on my words and say that I'm overstating something.
    It should be our intention and desire to commit every area of life to Christ's Lordship at the point of salvation. We should not be planning on withholding an area that Christ cannot have be Master over, nor should a sinner purposefully gloss over a sin when seeking forgiveness. God knows the heart and He alone judges it's motives and desires.
    If a bride could fully commit herself to her husband at the point of the ceremonial vows, then there would be no need for the biblical instruction to continue to do so.
    However, the Bible is written in a way that shows what our intentions and desires should be towards Christ and how we can carry them out.
    I think anti-LS people should pay better attention to what is said and stop looking for heresy and error behind every word.

    Give the brother or sister the benefit of the doubt and surprise them.
    :)
     
  15. skypair

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    Ah -- so which comes first? Which one does the believer receive first?

    I rather like Isa 40's "marriage" formulation of it. NO ONE gets married saying, "I'm gonna ingnore this man/woman as soon as we get out of this church!" The exact opposite is the norm.

    But along the way, unforseen issues arise, don't they? Does that mean you were never married just because of the way the marriage looks today?

    Salvation is the same, IMHO. The TRUE believer gave himself/herself to Christ "for better or worse" with little or no thought that there could be a "worse." When they don't appear to live like they're saved is not a sign they weren't saved --- just that their day-to-day faith is weak. They have eternal salvation but not temporal salvation.

    skypair
     
  16. swaimj

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    Isaiah 40:28, you made a statement in the OP that I quoted and questioned. Then you modified the statement and explained what you meant. I accepted your explanation and agreed with you. This is not nit-picking. It is reading your statement and asking you for clarification. It is discussion. That is what this board is for. Sorry if you took offense. I did not mean offense.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    Eternal salvation came first. All who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world had their eternal salvation perfected by Christ in this plane called time. Their eternal salvation was planned in eternity past, agreed on by the Triune God in eternity past, guaranteed by the blood of the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.

    There is nothing God required of them to add onto His work, and there is nothing they can do to make the work more complete.

    Not their faith, not their knowledge, not their obedience, not their doctrines, not their repentance.

    They were saved entirely on the merit of Christ, enter Glory entirely on the merit of Christ, and have no one else to thank but Christ.

    I am sorry that you seem to would have liked man to have a great part in it, thru their faith, thru their repentance, and whatever else you keep posting on this board, (I apologize in advance if I am misinterpreting you) but that is just not the case.

    The eternal salvation of God's people has no pre-requisite at all. No if's, no but's. Just yeah and yeah.


    I have no problem with Isaiah40:28's allegory.
     
  18. Isaiah40:28

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    No offense taken.
    I stand by what I said.
     
  19. swaimj

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    Both of them I presume. When you take two opposite positions simultaneously you can never be completely wrong. What a strategy!
     
    #19 swaimj, Feb 7, 2008
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  20. skypair

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    Excellent!! And this is called what? JUSTIFICATION. And how are we JUSTIFIED? "In Christ" or "in election?"

    Here's a "hot tip" for you --- Sproul says it is by belief (knowledge, assent, appropriation).

    You said the operative words -- "IN CHRIST." That wasn't "IN ELECTION" was it?

    Excellent, again!! This is what we call SANCTIFICATION. Daily living and growth "in Christ." The Bible calls it variously "into the measure of His stature," "until we all come to the measure of a perfect man," etc. Rom 8:29 calls it "whom He did foreknow, them He did PREDESTINATE..."

    Now you're getting the idea!

    Oops. You lost me. Where is this in scripture??

    Of course there isn't! What are you saying I "add to His work"or "do to make the work more complete??" Jesus said, "It is FINISHED." What do you think I do down here in the 21st century that adds to or completes that???? Are you like a "Back to the Future" fan or something?

    First let me note -- you are talking in the "third person." Are we to assume that YOU are only going by what others say??? that you are reciting from rote something you have neither experienced nor believed??

    And are you really saying that there are NO conditions to JUSTIFICATION?? It appears that Sproul disagrees with you, sir.

    Well, I appreciate that you apologize in advance if you umisrepresent me -- ditto. But what if you misrepresent God? Are you saying that eternal salvation doesn't require belief/faith then? My, aren't you a dandy!! making heaven free and all! Who put you in charge? Who gave you the keys to the kingdom?

    Excellent!! Then which came first -- belief in your fiancee or the marriage?

    skypair
     

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