Lordship Salvation vs. Free Grace

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Aug 26, 2012.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
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    Here is my review of the book Eternal Security by Stanley which I finished tonight.

    Am I understanding correctly the views presented? Lordship teaches that those that do not submit in every area of their life and die as Homosexuals "christians" whom have not gotten victory will go to hell. However Lutzer & Stanley say otherwise.
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    Not really.That only exists in His book

    This does not look like the wicked person is just going to lose a yo-yo,and a box of crayons in heaven...looks like he is not making the trip, unless he repents.:thumbs:

     
  3. convicted1

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    You, Brother, have hit the proverbial "nail on the head". :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  4. evangelist6589

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    Inherit and entering are two different things. Salvation is by faith, and salvation is a gift and not of ourselves (Eph 2:8-10). There are all sins that we will die not having fully submitted to His Lordship on. But then again perhaps there are those homosexuals whom do not mean one word of what they claim and have not repented of any sins, and they are not serious.
     
  5. 12strings

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    You, Lutzer, and stanley seem to be saying this...Is there scripture to back it up? I'm not denying that there seems to be differing rewards...but can a biblical case be made that inheriting eternal life, and entering heaven are 2 different things?
     
  6. OldRegular

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    God will bring His "chosen ones" to salvation in Jesus Christ. That is certain!

    I would add that given the frequency of the use of the name Lord Jesus in the book of Acts through Revelation [~150] there is obviously truth in the term "Lordship Salvation"! If Jesus Christ is not Lord can He be Savior?
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    Hello Willis,

    I think we can all agree on this one:laugh::wavey: I do not think God has changed His mind on this issue since Sodom and Gommorah.{he never needs to change his mind as he is immutable}
    As sinners sometimes we still do not grasp the sinfulness of sin as much as we need to.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    Hello EV,

    I do not want to jump on your words, as I believe I understand your main thought. By way of clarification....

    Salvation, and sanctification are supernatural. We repent and believe, we are told to mortify remaining sin. Yet it is God who works in us, enabling us to do what he has said to.
    We are not sinless...correct. And yet 1 cor 6 leaves no place for a professed brother....to be under sin to such an extent that he can be called any of the names on the list that Paul gives to us....

    The idea of us...." fully submitting" is not an option but is a reality in the life of true christians.
    There are some who profess faith that are not believers at all.

    We are all to some extent disobedient to God's word, and subject to God's discipline.
    but it is not up to us to:

    make Jesus Lord...he already is. we are to obey.


    If anyone clings to any one sin...they are not God's child. If you can say That brother John is a nice guy...but he steals whenever he goes to the grocery store....he is a thief and no christian.
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    two seperate issues in this discussion!

    A person saved by the grace of God can NEVER lose the Holy Spirit, and revert back to being "unsaved" again, BUT that christian also can quench and grieve the Sprit so much that they will get to heaven at the Judgement" as if thru fire", all works burned away, and have salvation but no inheritance !

    The homsexual/adultery/liar/thief/pride/gossip pick your sin area, all of us have one, christians wills till be tempted and at times fall, but they will confess and move forward...

    problem is that some of us stay in the mud for far longer than we should or need to!
     
  10. OldRegular

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    Where do you find Scripture to support that nonsense. Scripture tells us clearly: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. [Romans 8:17]

    And then there is this: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [1 John 3:2]:jesus:

    Now if we will be like Jesus Christ and joint heirs with Him what more could there be!:godisgood:
     
  11. convicted1

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    The way I understand LS is that He is our Lord and Master. Whenever we stray too far, He gives us the "rod of correction" and we get back in line. IOW, we surrender to Him, because He is our Lord.
     
  12. psalms109:31

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    I know we are not going to ever make it to heaven on our own righteousness. We should never put our selves on the Law that leads to death. The righteous man said before God I am done. I am a man with unclean lips. Job has said

    Job 9:
    29 Since I am already found guilty,
    why should I struggle in vain?
    30 Even if I washed myself with soap
    and my hands with cleansing powder,
    31 you would plunge me into a slime pit
    so that even my clothes would detest me.

    32 “He is not a mere mortal like me that I might answer him,
    that we might confront each other in court.
    33 If only there were someone to mediate between us,
    someone to bring us together,
    34 someone to remove God’s rod from me,
    so that his terror would frighten me no more.
    35 Then I would speak up without fear of him,
    but as it now stands with me, I cannot.

    But praise God for Jesus Christ


    Job16:
    18 “Earth, do not cover my blood;
    may my cry never be laid to rest!
    19 Even now my witness is in heaven;
    my advocate is on high.
    20 My intercessor is my friend
    as my eyes pour out tears to God;
    21 on behalf of a man he pleads with God
    as one pleads for a friend.

    22 “Only a few years will pass
    before I take the path of no return.

    We live our life not for our own salvation but others, because those who believe in Christ rivers of living water will flow from within them. It doesn't come from us, but Christ who lives from within us.
     
    #12 psalms109:31, Aug 30, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2012
  13. Skandelon

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    I agree, but what do you believe about those who repent yet continue to struggle throughout their lives with the same patterns of sin? Addictions? etc?
     
  14. webdog

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    You are partly right. Stanley does believe they will spend the millenium in hell, sort of a "baptist purgatory" then be restored to the kingdom.

    If committing any one sin after salvation prevents someone from Heaven, this is nothing more than works based salvation.
     
  15. convicted1

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    Is this the ME doctrine that got some banned on here a few years ago?

    Agreed. That is why it states in the bible we are saved by grace through faith, and not works by faith. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  16. convicted1

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    Remember, Brother Skandelon, Jesus breaks the yoke of sin off of us, and puts His yoke upon us, and His yoke is easy, and His burden is light.
     
  17. webdog

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    That's it!
     
  18. convicted1

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    ugh!!!!!!!!
     
  19. webdog

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    ...when we are walking by the Spirit.

    Besides refuting LS, the following passage shows true believers can live as unbelievers.

    Instructions for Christian Living

    17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.

    20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

    25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 “In your anger do not sin”[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.

    29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

    1 Cor. 3 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?

    5... It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?
     
  20. The Archangel

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    The issue does go deeper, doesn't it?

    As Mark Dever has commented (a paraphrase): A true Christian will always take God's side against sin. A "false" Christian will take sin's side against God.

    There is a massive difference between a Christian who struggles with sin, patterns of sin, addiction, etc. and a Christian who embraces and indulges sin.

    A "test" of sorts is what a person does once confronted with the sin: Do they confess what they're doing is a sin at all? Do they admit their struggle against it? Do they ask for help in the struggle? If a person does these things then it is likely they are a true believer who is struggling. This is a person who, even though he struggles, takes God's side against sin.

    On the other hand, if a person is confronted with sin and they reply: It's OK, God knows I like ___________. Then this is a clear indication of someone who has not taken God's side against sin. This person simply isn't a Christian.

    This passage sums it up best, I think:
    [9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)​
    The passage states a very simple truth: One cannot freely commit the sins listed (ie. take the side of these sins against God) and be a Christian.

    Many of the anti-Lordship salvation group want use their flawed understanding of things to "sin all they want." A true believer will always "sin more than they want."

    The Archangel
     

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