Lordship salvation

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by gb93433, Sep 19, 2003.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433
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    I know there are those who believe that salvation is followed by works. I believe in most cases that is true. But it seems to me that the only qualification for salvation is belief which is faith in Jesus Christ.

    So how would you explain the idea of lordship salvation to someone who talks about the man of the cross next to Jesus? He only had belief. I don't see how he could have had any works other than faith in Jesus.

    I am also thinking of 1 Cor. 3:15, "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
     
  2. Doubting Thomas

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    Faith without works is dead, and we are not saved by a dead "faith". Even the thief on the cross demonstrated repentance by rebuking the mocking thief.

    Christ will not be saviour of those who refuse to submit to Him as Lord.
     
  3. Taufgesinnter

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    The pagan Greek idea of faith was intellectual assent to a set of propositions. The Hebrew biblical idea of faith was trusting obedience.
     
  4. Tim

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    Demons have a form of belief, but no faith.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  5. Bugman

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    I'm a big believer in Lordship Salvation.

    Basicly I explain it as sancification starting at the moment you are saved. God begins to sanctify you, so you start to follow after Him and in doing so you become more like Christ. The Thief on the cross rebuked a person for mocking Christ.

    Bryan
    SDG
     
  6. Doubting Thomas

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    Excellent point. [​IMG]
     
  7. swaimj

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    What? What is the difference between a "form of belief" and "faith"?
     
  8. Primitive Baptist

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    Works will follow a genuine salvation experience.
     
  9. Doubting Thomas

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    What? What is the difference between a "form of belief" and "faith"? </font>[/QUOTE]See James 2:14-26 (especially noting v.19)
     
  10. Trotter

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    Swaimj,

    18"...the distance from the head to the heart.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  11. GODzThunder

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  12. swaimj

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    Sorry guys, but I don't think James is saying that there is a kind of faith in which people believe and yet are not saved. It is hard to see how such a point could be argued based upon the "faith" of demons. James' point is not that demons believe yet are not saved. There is no salvation provided for demons so no matter what they believe they would not be saved. Also the content of what demons are said to believe is not sufficient for salvation. If acknowledging that there is one God is sufficient to save a human then all Muslims would be saved. James' point is not that there is a kind of faith which does not save, his point is that if we believe something that is true and do not act accordingly then our faith is worthless, that is, it has no practical value. This passage in James us used as a proof-text for the Lordship salvation position and the way it is used does not reflect the argument that James is making.
     
  13. Doubting Thomas

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    The point is that head knowledge, whether one calls himself a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, is not enough to save anyone. Faith without works is dead. Are you suggesting that we can be saved by "dead faith"? If faith has no "practical value", what good is it in an eternal salvific sense?

    James said in 1:12 that the "crown of life" is promised by the Lord to "those who love Him." Also in 2:5 he states that the kingdom is for "those who love Him." And it's not enough to claim we love God or that we have warm fuzzy feelings about Him. Christ said "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me" (John 14:21). The entire First Epistle of John was written to show how one can know if they really love God and thus belong to Him.

    The bottom line, is that the notion that one can have Christ as savior without Him being Lord is not Biblical nor was it heard of in the Church until this past century.
     
  14. Gunther

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    James 2:14
    What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

    Swaimj, James says that a faith without works cannot save a person. Lordship salvation all the way.
     
  15. swaimj

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    But Gunther, later in the same passage/same context, James says "You see then brethren how that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." See, man is saved (justified) by works. Works salvation all the way! Do you see the problem your interpretation raises?

    Now, of course I am not arguing for salvation by works. However, if you interpret the second statement in which he uses the word "justification" consistently with the way you interpret the word "saved", then YOU would have to argue for salvation by works. The question then is, when James uses the term "saved" or "justified" is he speaking of forensic justification in the sense that God declares us righteous, or is he using the term a different way?
     
  16. neal4christ

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    Actually, he did not have only belief. First, we see from Matthew, that he did not believe and in fact joined in the mockery of Christ:

    The theives also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Matthew 27:44

    Then we see he changed his tune in Luke:

    And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we receive justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. Luke 23:39-41

    See, he defended Christ and spoke up (a good work). However, before he changed his tune, what had to happen? He believed that Christ was who he said he was! This good work followed his faith.

    Also, before we write of good works and not being a necessary part of true salvation, I submit to you Ephesians 2:10 (which we tend to forget comes after verses 8 and 9!):

    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

    Paul makes it clear that these works do not save us (vv. 8, 9); however, he makes it clear that they are a necessary product of our salvation (v.10). True, living faith will have works. False, dead faith will not.

    To me it seems absolutely clear and clean-cut. I would never assure someone of their salvation if they simply say they have faith and yet their life shows absolutely no fruit of this claimed faith.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Neal
     
  17. Trotter

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    When it is all said and done, the only ones who know that a person is truly saved are the person in question and God.

    I believe that when a person enters into a faith relationship with God, he will begin to show a change: in attitude, in character, in beliefs, in conversation, in everything. That does not mean that someone who doesn't show this at all times is not saved (don't judge me in heavy traffic :D ), but that there will be some change in the very nature of the person.

    Many Americans think that just because America was founded on Christian ideals, that they are Christians and are saved. Wrong!

    Faith without works IS dead, because a faith that does not produce change is nothing more than "head-knowledge", and that never saved anyone.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  18. Omega

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    I agree 100% Trotter, again it looks like we are on the same page. [​IMG]

    Your friend Omega
     
  19. HankD

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    Actually Gunther, James does not say that faith without works cannot save someone but asks the question "Can that faith save Him?"

    Also, even the works which we do are not a gaurantee of coming forth from true faith in Jesus Christ, even "many wonderful works" done by someone who emphatically calls Jesus Christ "Lord Lord".

    Matthew 7:
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    The foundation of our faith is Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 3
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    So yes, that kind of faith can save him if his faith was/is true foundational faith in Jesus Christ, yet so as by fire.

    According to Scripture (imo) it is possible.

    Logic tells us that it's not too probable that some one who has been born from above does no "works" or does useless works but (imo) the Scripture leaves room for that possibility.

    HankD
     
  20. timothy 1769

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    Actually Gunther, James does not say that faith without works cannot save someone but asks the question "Can that faith save Him?"

    Also, even the works which we do are not a gaurantee of coming forth from true faith in Jesus Christ, even "many wonderful works" done by someone who emphatically calls Jesus Christ "Lord Lord".

    Matthew 7:
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I think you are misunderstanding the Matthew scripture. It appears to me that "wonderful works" = miracles. It's saying that even working miracles in the name of Jesus is no sure sign of salvation. What matters is "not working iniquity", living a life of sin.
     

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