Lordship salvation

Actually Gunther, James does not say that faith without works cannot save someone but asks the question "Can that faith save Him?"

Also, even the works which we do are not a gaurantee of coming forth from true faith in Jesus Christ, even "many wonderful works" done by someone who emphatically calls Jesus Christ "Lord Lord".

Matthew 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
</font>[/QUOTE]I think you are misunderstanding the Matthew scripture. It appears to me that "wonderful works" = miracles. It's saying that even working miracles in the name of Jesus is no sure sign of salvation. What matters is "not working iniquity", living a life of sin. </font>[/QUOTE]you seem to be misunderstanding it even more, what matters is what Jesus first says " I never knew you"

 

I agree with this qualification:
There is no greater iniquity than substituting our "works" (even out of self-deceit) in place of the redeeming work of Jesus Christ.

The judgement seat will reveal all.

HankD

 

Originally posted by massdak:
you seem to be misunderstanding it even more, what matters is what Jesus first says " I never knew you"

I understand that, but not living a life of iniquity is an indicator of salvation. Proclaiming "lord lord" and working miracles are not.

After salvation It is possible to live a life satisfying to God:

Revelation 3:1
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

After salvation It is possible to live a life satisfying to God:

if by this statement you mean that through the sanctifying work of God in believers that we can be obedient and do our reasonable duty for the Lord not expecting anything for our work but merely out of gratitude and love for God, then i agree with you. It is all a work of God and salvation is based solely on the Lord. are we on the same page?

 

The answer to the question: can that faith save him?, is rhetorical. It is assumed that the answer is no.

James turns to a basic example in human terms. It is worthless to tell a person who needs food and clothes to just go on his merry way and not actually help him.

The same is true for a person who says that they have faith, but no works.

Now, James is not saying that works make a person justified. He is arguing for the KIND of faith that saves a person.

It is a faith in Christ that once set in motion, will seek to rid the unfruitful works of darkness and replace them with fruit that lead to eternal life (Romans 7:4-6).

Paul and James are in complete agreement. Salvation is a point in time, a process, and something that believers will inherit in the end.

 

Paul speaks of initial salvation in Romans 4.

James speaks of the salvation at the end of one's life in James 2.

Works can only be deemed good if they are a result of faith. "Without faith, it is sin... (Rom. 14:21).

 

Many lost people can put on a good outward show. Many can "fake" it better than most Christians "walk" it. All it takes is motivation and will power, along with a good measure of deceit and a dash of cunning (I know, I used to be one). Many people sitting in the pews, on church roles, filling church positions are of this sort.

Many Christians are truly saved, but do not show forth the fruit of it.

It all boils down to this...what I believe SHOULD happen after salvation is just that-what I believe. No matter what you do, what you teach, what you preach, there will be some who never have faith, but do the works, and there will be some who have the faith, but do no works. Works won't save the first, and the lack of them won't unsave the second.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

I don't think a true believer will "do no works". I think they only produce a few and it may not be visible to us.

Having said that I agree that works have nothing to do with maintaining or even proving the genuiness of our salvation.

Like you said, unbelievers can do lots of works, and believers can do little, but it is the believers who are guarenteed eternal life the moment they place their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.

IFBReformer

 

Taufgesinnter,

Actually I would have to completely disagree with you on this. The Pagan "idea of faith" of faith was that you constantly had to do things to keep pleasing the gods.

People were called on to sacrifice their children on altars to the gods, they called to give their daughters to prostitution and many other hanious things.

This is why the Christian Gospel was so foriegn because it presented a loving God who sacrificed his own Son for the sins of mankind.

And they were told that eternal life was free gift, and they could do nothing to earn it.

This was a revolutionary concept to the Pagans of the day.

IFBReformer

 

I agree that saving faith will produce fruits and that those fruits will produce works. But how many fruits and how many works - no man can make such a list.

Will we always see visible fruits and works - no.

Otherwise if we say we must - which ones must we see, I think your list and the guy next to you would be different.

"Salvation is both free and costly. With eternal life comes immediate death to self...That was what Jesus meant when he spoke of taking up one's own cross to follow him. And that is why he demanded that we count the cost carefully. He was calling for an exchange of all that we are for all that he is. He was demanding implicit obedience unconditional surrender to his lordship."
("The Gospel According to Jesus", John MacArthur page 147)

What you and MacArthur teach is a "bate and switch" style Gospel.

It like when you see an ad in the grocery store paper for a free product. And then when you get to the store to get your free product you find out it is only free with the purchase of something else. So was it really free then?

Then answer is no.

Ephesians 2:8-9(NIV)
"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

Revelation 22:17(NIV)
"The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life."

Romans 4:1-8(NIV)
"1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.""

It is either a free gift or an "obligation"(reward, prize, ect...) it cannot be both. The very nature of a gift is that it is free.

The Gospel I read in the scriptures in an absolutely free gift - there is no "fine print".

The Gospel of Lordship(as well others) is one that presents the Gospel as free gift, but with strings attached.

It says God will give you this free gift if you only do one little thing - submit all that you are to his mastery.(Really this is something even Lordship advocates cannot live up to).

But thats the problem, it is asking to to "do" something.

The only work that is required for salvation Christ tells us in John 6:28-29(NIV):

"28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.""

Romans 9:16(NIV)
"It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

1 Corinthians 1:30(NIV)
"It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption."

I don't strive for my salvation - it is a free gift. It does not depend on my "desire or effort, but on God's mercy". If I am working or striving for my salvation than it is "not credited" to me "as a gift", but as "an obligation".

He is my "holiness" with which I shall see God.

IFBReformer

 

That's interesting because Christ said such things as...

"You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them." Matthew 7:16-20.

"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in Him, bears much fruit, for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
John 15:4-6

Just some food for thought.

 

On the contrary, perhaps it only appears that way to you because your concept of saving faith may be somewhat deficient. Christ said if we want to come after Him we have to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him (Luke 9:23). As MacArthur pointed out, Christ also said we have to count the cost (Luke 14:28) if we are going to follow Him. He also said that we must (gasp!) "strive to enter through the narrow gate for many, I say to you will seek to enter but will not be able.(Luke 13:24)"

So the question is do we interpret Paul in a way that explains away the hard sayings of Christ, or do we use the teachings of Christ to interpret Paul correctly?

 

Lordship Salvation "requires" a believer to enter into the fold as an experienced and knowledgeable adult christian.

foregoing all instruction (wisdom and understanding) that a baby christian and child christian MUST receive.

proponents of "Lordship salvation" misunderstand everything that is incorporated in the process of SANCTIFICATION.

"Lordship Salvation" is a doctrine that easily allows its proponents to judge their brother and sisters on their ongoing relationship with their God. every second examining others for shortcomings and faults.

imagine yourself sitting on the pew next to someone who believes this doctrine. their looking at you thinking, "what have you done to deserve salvation and is Jesus really your LORD". and If THEY determine that your not.."Your not saved. and your playing the role of an unbeliver trying to fool everyone with your misunderstandings".

they say.."faith without works is DEAD".

yet they dont understand that "Salvation of God is a FREE gift of God based on what he has done.
and not what the believer has done".

do those who believe in Lordship salvation actually understand what it means to call Jesus Lord of their Life? What he has to PROVE to the believer to allow the believer to understand that truth with beyond a shadow of doubt.

it requires "dying to self, or destroying completely the works of the flesh".

It REQUIRES TOTAL ABDICATION OF CONTROL.

a baby or child christian CANT do that.
nor do they understand what "Lord" means.

"Lordship Salvation" should be examined very closely before so glibly accepting its proponents as truths. or that one should demand New Believers to accept Without Proof..

In Sanctification..the Lordship of Jesus is "understood" between the Child and Young man stage.
and thay requires trials of tribulations and persecutions. that requires a lot of time in ones life as a believer growing "in christ"

not when accepted initially as becoming a new believer. a mere "babe" in christ.

Me2

 

Jesus isn't a cafeteria. You can't have him as savior, and then sometime later as Lord.

 

Gunther,

We Grow in knowledge. That requires to be taught. wisdom and understanding. God teaches everything to us twice. in two "different" ways.

sounds familiar.

faith without works.
try wisdom without understanding.
..or head knowledge without proof of experience.

we learn of Jesus being Lord because ONLY he can defeat the works of the flesh. we cant of our own strength.

we are taught what the works of the flesh are via the law. we try of our own strength to live by the law or stop sinning or stop letting our "lord" down by being defeated by the law proving that we cant live by the law. we eventually have to ask Jesus to defeat the forces that are against us.

he defeats the powers that are against us.
one by one. that is faith in God being proven.
that is wisdom and understanding.
that is faith with works.
that is Jesus As Lord being Proven to you.

then you can declare Jesus as Lord..
and not until. Like I said before. that occurs between the child and young man stage. as described in 1 John..the young man as being an overcomer.

his faith has being proven under persecution and trials.

"Lordship salvation" should be closely examined.

no one enters into Gods family a Grown adult in understanding or experience. They have to be given time to grow and learn.

Lordship salvation is all about
"knowing ABOUT something".
not "KNOWING something".

Me2

 

The fact that Jesus is Lord is part of his person. Saving faith will accept him for who he is. You cannot divide Jesus up and deny or reject certain aspects about him and have saving faith.

Whoever calls upon the name of the LORD, shall be saved.

 

I couldn't disagree with that more strongly. For if one has no concept of Christ being "Lord" or "Master" or even "boss", then they are accepting a false Christ. Even children know what it means for another to be in charge, and unless one comes as a child to submit to Christ as Lord He can't be saved. Does this mean that throughout life he or she won't come to an even greater understanding of what Christ's Lordship entails as he or she growths in faith? Of course not. But if one has no intention of submitting to Christ as Lord (and indeed, refuses to follow Him), that one cannot claim Christ as Savior regardless of how long one thinks he's been "saved".

 

Gunther,

ever wonder why scriptures mention jesus name in so many different ways

jesus or christ or lord.

because The Scriptures are getting someones attention.

everytime scripture also points to doing "something" to be saved. it is referring to a specific group of people in a certain level of sanctification.

there are four discribed levels of christians.

baby..they understand Jesus as the dying man on the cross.

child..they accept Jesus as their risen christ.
their propitiator. (children cant go to the father. they go to christ)

young man. overcomers. recognized as Jesus Brothers and sisters. Can go straight to the father "in jesus name". have overcome the flesh. recognize Jesus as lord and themselves as risen from death.

fathers. recognize Jesus as God. His plans as are From the beginning. His nature of infinite and eternal Love. His Sovereign control. they understand the capability to Love and forgive others like Jesus desires.

each believer will know who they are. but dont think you can fool someone other than fools themselves. young men and fathers recognize babies and children. we're all the same as we grow in christ. we are easily recognizeable as well as our enemies. the world, the flesh and the devil..

and all having distinct differences of wisdom, understanding and faith. each level has a particular enemy that is focused on. (world, flesh,devil..or lust of eyes, flesh, pride of life)

learning the related wisdom and understanding in understanding youself, your enemy and God to a deeper focus.

and each level gives more revelation of the nature of God to you and your own nature to yourself.

think of Jesus asking you to
accepting forgiveness of others to yourself

or try forgiving yourself.
try forgiving your brother
or forgiving your neighbor.
How about forgiving your enemies

think About forgiving every human being for every thing imaginable done to Each other.

Try thinking about every thing ever done against God and He Himself expressing total forgiveness for every Sin to the point of Dying for their sin. and their KILLING HIM as he continues forgiving their treaspasses against Him.

thats what He means as he says to us.."Pick up your cross and follow Him". We are continually growing in revelation of who He is. Of who He desires us to Be Like...

sanctification is a growing process and all believers are treated equal in opportunity.

babies receive baby revelations, children receive child like revelations.young men receive young men revelations.
and fathers receive father revelations.

babies and children dont receive young men and father revelations, because they are not prepared to receive them.

All Gods children Are planned to grow in a VERY Specific way. Step by Step. and Level by Level

+ + +

Try Asking someone who Follows "Lordship Salvation" about the process of Sanctification.

to them, the process is misunderstood or eliminated.

are they being held back in the knowledge concerning sanctification on purpose?

You Can Bet On It!

Me2

 

That's interesting because Christ said such things as...

"You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them." Matthew 7:16-20.

"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in Him, bears much fruit, for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
John 15:4-6

Just some food for thought. </font>[/QUOTE]Matthew 7:15-20(NIV)
"15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

Who will we know by their fruits?
"false prophets"

Does this teacher have the fruits of the Spirit?

That is the entire context of this passage. It is not telling to believers to judging other belivers with some artifical list of thing they think a person should be doing or their not saved.

So I hope that helps you on this passage.

Now on to the next one:

John 15:4-6
"4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

So what is "much fruit"? It that two fruits or three? How many do you think it is?

We know that not all will bear the same amount of fruit:

"But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
Matthew 13:23(NIV)

So how much is "bear much"? I would like you to give me your defintion.

Lets take a look at the fruits we could bear:
"22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law"
Galatians 5:22-23(NIV)

What if someone bears the fruit of love, but not the fruit of self-control? Are they not saved?

What if they develop the fruit of patience, but no the fruit kindness? Are they not saved?

What if they develop the fruit of goodness, but not gentleness, are they not saved?

We would all like to know what fruits we must develop in order to keep and maintain our salvation.

IFBReformer

 

a reference to the process of sanctification and its diffefent levels of distinction

some thirty..child stage. those priests who could work inside the outercourt of the tabernacle.

some sixty..young men stage. those who could enter the veil of the tabernacle. children could not enter. this is the veil mentioned as the door (jesus) or described as entering into "heaven".
only young men could enter and fellowship with each other and THE LORD.

some One Hundredfold.. Father stage. they could proceed through the second veil. into The Holy of Holies. the presence of the Glory of God.

the process of Sanctification is the blueprint that each believer walks. and its descriptures and symbols are throughout the bible

and we all begin as unlearned babies.
not as learned young men or wise fathers.

Me2