Lordship Salvation

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by James_Newman, Oct 4, 2004.

  1. James_Newman

    James_Newman
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    I'd like to post an older article discussing 'lordship salvation' here, written by JD Faust from his Kingdom Alert newsletter. I think I'd like to open this discussion up to anyone, except maybe people who are wearing bowties in their avatars. I think I can do that, right? :rolleyes:

    THE "LORDSHIP" SALVATION CONTROVERSY
    (Kingdom Alert, 8-30-00)

    Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    31 And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    The Kingdom Alert Update believes in salvation by grace through faith (i.e. belief) alone. By "belief" I mean "belief" as it is used in the English language! I mean "believe" as it is used for the first time in the King James Bible in Genesis 15:

    Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
    6 And he BELIEVED in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for righteousness.

    I mean "believe" as it is used the second time in the Bible:

    Exodus 4:1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not BELIEVE me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.

    I mean "believe" as it is found for the first time in the NT:

    Matthew 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, BELIEVE ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

    Did Jesus mean "commit yourself and turn from your sin" in Mark 9? There is no English dictionary on the face of the earth that I know of (and I have a fair collection of new and old) that defines the word "believe" as meaning "commit," "work," "be good," "turn from sin," "ask Jesus into your heart," "confess," "pray," etc. Yet John Macarthur and other "Lordship Salvation" advocates tell us that "belief" really means "commit" or some other term signifying "works." (They cannot stand it when you call "crossbearing," "committing," "surrendering," "confessing," etc. "works.") I trust that the KJV translators understood the original languages better than modern scholars. They knew that words in any language must often be translated various ways depending on the context. When they translated a word as "believe" they were not re-inventing or redefining the word "believe" into some Gnostic, theological definition.

    There are many good, fundamental brethren who are rightfully displeased with the state of professing "Christendom." They see the great number of people that are willing to make a decision, but they notice how few there are who are willing to take up their crosses in commitment to Christ. But I do not think the answer to this problem is to re-invent the word "believe." The answer is to present the BIBLICAL truth about the Judgment Seat of Christ for Christians (and the truth concerning the future Kingdom of God) with the same consistency and force that Christ and the Apostles continually presented it. Great Baptist preachers such as Robert Govett, James Graves, D.M. Panton, R.E. Neighbour, W.F. Roadhouse, etc., in one degree or another, knew how to preach responsibility to Christians. Yet these truths concerning the fear of God practically disappeared in the 1960's among Baptists and other fundamentalists. So the answer is not found in making the Gospel "hard" and thereby destroying the logical
    possibility for absolute assurance (no one can know for sure they are saved if they have to wait their whole life to make sure they don't one day lack "commitment" for an extended period of time and thereby prove to be only empty professors!). The reason professing Christians are so worldly today is because the Gospel of salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ's finished work is so often "helped" by preachers because they are afraid it is too simple when left alone. But if they would preach
    a Biblical Judgment Seat they would find all the warnings and responsibility truth needed to stir people to holiness; and the Gospel could be left pure...
     
  2. Craigbythesea

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    Good evening, James, Thank you for starting this thread and protecting it from those hit and run snide remarks that dampen the spirit of Biblical discussions [​IMG] .

    I also thank you for beginning the discussion with the faith of Abraham who is the best example in all of the Bible of what kind of belief is necessary for God to count it as righteousness [​IMG] . You are certainly right that Abraham’s faith was much more than intellectual ascent, but a life-changing faith such that when Abraham believed God, he surrendered his entire will and every possession to Him [​IMG] . Throughout the Bible we find others who’s believing in God resulted in abrupt changes in their lives as they surrendered to Him, but certainly Abraham is the best example of all because his surrender to God as the Lord of his life was absolutely awesome :cool: !

    This most certainly shoots down teachers like Zane Hodges who teach that we can be saved by mere intellectual ascent rather than Biblical faith, and who through the other side of their mouth teach that if that is the only kind of faith we have, we will spend eternity in a suburb of heaven where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

    This is also a good illustration of how a man can get a good understanding of the Word of God from the King James Bible without going to Dallas Theological Seminary like Zane Hodges did and came out believing and teaching false doctrine.

    There can be no doubt at all from what you have presented here that for anyone to be saved it is necessary to for them to surrender their lives to Jesus as Lord and accept His salvation through true Biblical faith.

    Good job, James [​IMG] . Thank you [​IMG] ! We are all proud of you [​IMG] !

    CBTS

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Craigbythesea

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    Amen! Preach it! [​IMG] Accepting Jesus Christ as one’s Lord and Saviour is a whole lot more than making an intellectual decision one minute, and then living one’s life to please one’s self rather than God :( .

    Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

    This is an absolutely splendid description of surrender of one’s self and total submission to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, an expressly clear description of what it means to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ [​IMG] .

    Acts 16:31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [​IMG]

    Amen! and Amen!

    [​IMG]
     
  4. James_Newman

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    Why thank you Craig, I'm glad you approve. Now Show me how believe means more than believe? The problem with lordship salvation is that it takes the very fundamental of Christian faith (belief) and turns it into some mystical attribute that only the elect can truly possess. How did this come about? What kind of belief did we see in Abraham in Genesis 15? If God was using the definition of faith that you would have us preach, then where is the evidence of such? The bible says Abraham believed, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. So what did have to do to prove that he believed?

    6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
    7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

    This almost sounds like a gift. If I didn't know better, I'd say this was a free gift that God gave to Abraham just for believing. But God doesn't give free gifts in the bible, does he? God surely must be telling Abraham here that if he really believes, he will have works. Isn't He? Well, actually, no He isn't saying that.
     
  5. Craigbythesea

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    James,

    I must say that the love of Jesus Christ appears to be more evident in your posts than in the posts of some who oppose you.

    And I find that exuberant love in Lacy's posts also [​IMG] . Perhaps we who oppose you on some of your points of doctrine would do well to consider what you have that we at times lack :( .

    I appreciate you and I am thankful for you. It is an honor to be able to reply to your posts and have you reply to mine [​IMG] .

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Artimaeus

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    I have to admit that I do not understand this controversy. I believe God. What else is there that isn't related to and a result of that?
     
  7. Kiffin

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    It is not completely accurate to associate "lordship" Salvation with only Calvinism. I am a Calvinist but Classical Arminian theology also teaches "lordship" Salvation though it differs with the Calvinist view in some areas.

    Of course it is a gift..all of salvation is a gift but Faith or Believing is not a One Time event but will never die in those who are truly Christ. Let it also be noted that James 2:21-24 is clear that Abraham was justified by his Works. That is not a contradiction of the Apostle Paul but complimenting the fact that if one has Faith in Christ he or she will also have works which are the fruit of that Faith.
     
  8. James_Newman

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    OK, Abraham was justified by his works, as noted in James 2:21-24. So Abraham was showing by his works that he truly believed in the Lord Jesus Christ? Not as far as I can tell... Lets take a look at Abraham's faith.

    James 2
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    This is refering to an event that happened in Genesis 22. Abraham was told by God to take his son Isaac up on a mountain and sacrifice him. Abraham got up early, and took Isaac out to sacrifice him.

    Gen 22
    3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
    4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
    5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
    6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
    7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
    8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
    9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
    10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

    Great was Abraham's faith. He is a three-time faith hall-of-famer. Lets see this event in Hebrews 11.

    17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
    18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
    19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

    Thats some faith alright. He didn't know how God was going to accomplish it, but he knew that Isaac was going to be the vessel through which God fulfilled His promise, so he just figured within himself that God could raise Isaac from the dead! He probably didn't want to do it, but he knew that he had a promise already. And he feared God.

    11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
    12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

    How then, are we to understand Romans 4?
    Romans 4
    1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    You say Abraham believed God, and his works are the evidence. Ok, thats fine, I'll give you that in the case of James. What does that have to do with Romans 4? This says Abraham was justified by faith, not works. James says Abraham was justified by works. Which is it? Well, it has to be both. How can I say that? Because God doesn't lie. If He said it in His word, it must be true. So now we have to figure out how to resolve this apparent contradiction.

    You may say "Well, faith without works is dead faith, and therefore we must have living faith to truly be justified, just like Abraham. He was justified by living faith, and that is evidenced by his works." Well, that sounds reasonable I suppose, but it really is not what Romans 4 says. I don't think you could ever find a scripture to prove this theory, but many people believe this because it seems to make sense. But if you look at these scriptures a little closer, you will see that there is a better explaination.

    Lets look at some more of Romans 4.

    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
    9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
    10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
    11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
    12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
    13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    Through faith, Abraham was justified and received a promise, that he should be the heir of the world. When did Abraham receive this promise? Long before Genesis 22. We first see God making this promise in Genesis 12.

    Genesis 12
    1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
    2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
    3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
    6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
    7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

    God told Abraham get out of your land, and go to a land that I will show you, and I will make a great nation out of you. Abraham did this, because he believed God. But the specific reference from Romans 4 is in Genesis 15.

    1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
    2 And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
    3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
    4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
    5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
    6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    So God promised Abraham that not only was He going to multiply him as the stars of heaven, but that He was going to give him an heir out of his own bowels. A literal son, not an adopted servant.
    This is Abraham being justfied by faith.

    Now we go back to Gen 22, and we will see something.

    12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
    13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
    14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
    15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
    16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
    17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
    18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice
    .

    Look at what has happened. Abraham obeyed the Lord, and he received more blessings, not the same blessing he had already received. This is Abraham being justified by works. And it is not the same justification as the one in Genesis 15. It is an additional blessing on top of the original promise, for fearing God and obeying His commandment.

    Look at Hebrews 11 again.

    17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
    18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
    19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

    He had recieved the promises before he was told to sacrifice Isaac. How do we figure this? Well for one, the bible said it. But he was given a son in his old age, just like God promised. None of the promises God gave Abraham previously were conditioned on this act of obedience. If Abraham had not followed God and gone to sacrifice Isaac, God would have been pretty disappointed I'm sure, but He would not have canceled the previous promises and taken back Isaac, would He?

    The justification in Romans was the first justification, by faith. This is separate from the second justification by works. Abraham obtained the promise by the first. He received a double portion of the blessing by the second.
     
  9. koreahog2005

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    Hello, ladies and gentlemen. I have mostly been posting on the Calvinism/Arminianism forum, so I hope you won't mind if I join you to discuss this very interesting topic. I am a Southern Baptist (IMB) missionary and have been serving in South Korea since March of 1996. I was a Southern Baptist pastor before I was a missionary. Our most recent SBC confession of faith, the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, is very clear on this point about lordship salvation:

    I agree with every word of our confession of faith. True saving faith can be summarized by the acronym F.A.I.T.H.: Forsaking All I Trust Him. If a person is past the age of accountability, the only way he can receive the gift of salvation is for him to have the willingness to surrender his life to Christ in repentance and faith.

    I think that Paul and James at certain times were talking about two different types of belief (faith) in their writings. James described intellectual assent as being inadequate for salvation as he asked a rhetorical question in James 2:14: “What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” James continued the thought in James 2:17: “Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.” James said that even demons have such intellectual assent: "The demons also believe, and shudder" (James 2:19). In contrast, Paul stressed the importance of true commitment in Romans 3:28: “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” Paul made the point that a person cannot earn salvation by doing good works. On the other hand, James said that good works are the sign of true commitment: “I will show you my faith by my works” (James 2:18). Works are the evidence of true faith, but works do not save us. True faith saves us. If Paul and James were not talking about different types of faith at certain points in their writings, their words are contradictory. I don't believe they were contradicting one another. James was discussing intellectual assent when he said the demons believe. Paul was clearly discussing true faith.

    The rich young ruler has been mentioned by others as an example of someone who was not willing to surrender every part of his life to Christ. Jesus indicated in Luke 14:33 that true disciples must be willing to give up everything to Him. Also in Luke 9:23, Jesus indicated that true disciples must be willing to deny themselves. We should only baptize true disciples (Matthew 28:19)

    An example of true faith being demanded is found in 1 Kings 18:21. Elijah, Ahab, and the 450 prophets of Baal were all committed one way or the other. The mass of people watching on Mount Carmel were uncommitted. Elijah asked them how long they would hesitate between two opinions. He told them to commit themselves one way or the other: "If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him." Notice he used the word "follow." True disciples are committed followers. After God's power was demonstrated, the people were willing to commit themselves to God. They fell on their faces and confessed Him as the one true God. Then they demonstrated their commitment by putting the 450 prophets of Baal to death in front of King Ahab.

    The parable of the sower and the soils gives a clear presentation of this principle about faith. Only the good soil produced fruit, and thus only the good soil represented true Christians. All Christians produce some good fruit (Matthew 7:16-20). The "rocky soil" people, however, had intellectual assent. Notice how the synoptic gospels describe the four types of soil:

    Matthew 13:19 – The soil beside road does not understand ( suníemi ) and loses it.
    Matthew 13:20 – The rocky soil receives ( lambáno ) the word.
    Matthew 13:22 – The thorny soil becomes unfruitful, and the word is choked.
    Matthew 13:23 – The good soil understands ( suníemi ) the word.

    Mark 4:15 – The soil beside road loses the word.
    Mark 4:16 – The rocky soil receives ( lambáno ) the word.
    Mark 4:19 – The thorny soil becomes unfruitful, and the word is choked.
    Mark 4:20 – The good soil accepts ( paradéxomai ) the word.

    Luke 8:12 – The soil beside road “may not believe and be saved” and loses it.
    Luke 8:13 – The rocky soil receives ( déxomai ) the word and believes.
    Luke 8:14 – The thorny soil brings no fruit to maturity, and the word is choked.
    Luke 8:15 – The good soil holds fast ( katéxo ) the word.

    I think it's very clear from Scripture that true repentance and faith are requirements for salvation:

    “If God therefore gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” And when they heard this, they quieted down, and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.” (Acts 11:17-18, NASV)

    For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Corinthians 7:10)

    And he called for lights and rushed in and, trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:29-31)

    And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50)

    “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

    “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:40)

    For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

    Jesus illustrated the order of events with the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32):

    1. The prodigal son sinned (v. 13), and he was considered by his father to be dead and lost (v. 24, 32).
    2. The prodigal son realized his need (v. 14), “came to his senses” (v. 17), and was willing to admit his sin and be a servant to his father (v. 18-19).
    3. At the time the prodigal son was returning to the father with an attitude of repentance and surrender, the father embraced him as a son who had new life (v. 20-24).

    The father could have rescued the son when the son first “began to be in need” (v. 14), but the father waited until the son “came to his senses” and was on his way back to the father. Again, we see that the willingness to repent and surrender precedes salvation.
     
  10. koreahog2005

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    I'll add a little bit more to what I already said about the parable of the sower and the soils. There are two indications that the people represented by the rocky soil and thorny soil never never became Christians. First, the people represented by the rocky soil are initially described as having “no root” (Matthew 13:6; Mark 4:6), and they are later described as having “no firm root” (Matthew 13:21; Mark 4:17; Luke 8:13). In contrast, Christians are described in Colossians 2:7 as “having been firmly rooted,” and they are described in Ephesians 3:17 as being “rooted and grounded in love.” Second, the people represented by the thorny soil are described as becoming unfruitful as the word is gradually choked (Matthew 13:22). We learn in Luke 8:14 that these “thorny soil” people “bring no fruit to maturity.” As mentioned earlier, all true Christians produce good fruit: “Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit” (Matthew 7:17). In the parable, only the people represented by the good soil produce good fruit: “And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance” (Luke 8:15).
     
  11. James_Newman

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    How good do you have to be to prove that you are saved?
     
  12. koreahog2005

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    James, I'm guessing that your question was directed at me. I think surrendering one's life in repentance and faith to Jesus is a correct decision, but I don't think it is a meritorious decision in the sense that one is doing something good to earn his salvation.

    Remember: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

    Salvation is a gift. The decision to receive an offered gift is not a meritorious decision. I am not aware of anyone who has been awarded a medal because of his decision to receive a gift offered to him. A person under conviction by the Holy Spirit realizes that he has a deadly disease (sin) and that Jesus (the Great Physician) has the only cure. We do not have to earn the cure; we simply have to make a choice to accept it.

    Receiving the gift of salvation involves surrender. This decision to surrender is also not a meritorious decision. I am not aware of any soldier who has been awarded a medal because of his decision to surrender unconditionally. An unconditional surrender involves a commitment to cease resisting (to repent) and a willingness to hand over all one has to someone acknowledged as superior and trustworthy (to have faith). Surrender involves a change in sovereignty; there is a different ruler in one’s life.
     
  13. DeaconLew

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    Let me think... surrender. I know you mean not fornicating any more right? Surrender, as in not commiting murder, or stealing, right? Hmmm. This sounds like works.

    How much surrender proves you are saved? Just surrendering some sins. I know you probably do not fornicate, but have you ever stolen anything recently? You know not paying a debt that you know you owe? Credit card or what ever? No? Maybe you watch a little worldly television programing, you know the "cleaner" stuff. CSI, Law and Order. The kind of programing that defames Christianity and takes the Lord's name in vain! I'm talking about surrender here, how much? How much surrender proves that you are saved? Jesus is perfect. He said that we should be as well (Matthew 5). Obviously, according your theology, you are perfect, right? Remember we are talking about surrender. How surrendered are you to Christ? Then that is how "saved" you are. And that is probably not much.

    -DeaconLew
     
  14. DeaconLew

    DeaconLew
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    BELIE'VE, v.t. To credit upon the authority or testimony of another; to be persuaded of the truth of something upon the declaration of another, or upon evidence furnished by reasons, arguments, and deductions of the mind, or by other circumstances, than personal knowledge. When we believe upon the authority of another, we always put confidence in his veracity.

    FAITH, n. [L. fides, fido, to trust; Gr. to persuade, to draw towards any thing, to conciliate; to believe, to obey. In the Greek Lexicon of Hederic it is said, the primitive signification of the verb is to bind and draw or lead, as signifies a rope or cable. But this remark is a little incorrect. The sense of the verb, from which that of rope and binding is derived, is to strain, to draw, and thus to bind or make fast. A rope or cable is that which makes fast. Heb.]

    1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. I have strong faith or no faith in the testimony of a witness, or in what a historian narrates.

    Hmmm. I see no surrender here.

    -DeaconLew
     
  15. DeaconLew

    DeaconLew
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    John 11:23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
    24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
    27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

    Consider my explaination of this passage in another post on this board:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/2485/2.html#000016

    -DeaconLew
     
  16. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    I'm not saying you are wrong, but can you back this statement up eith scripture? I tried to surrender to Christ's Lordship before I was saved and it was a miserable failure. I didn't even have the Holy Ghost's power so how could I surrender?

    Lacy
     
  17. koreahog2005

    koreahog2005
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    DeaconLew, thanks for your comments. The word “surrender” can be interpreted two ways:

    1. The willingness to give all one has to another person
    2. The actual work of giving all one has to the other person

    For example, General Lee signed the surrender document at Appomattox Court House, Virginia, on April 9, 1865. After he signed the commitment to turn over weapons, etc. to General Grant, the actual work began. It took a while for the word to get out to all the Southern troops, and some continued to fight. When we say that Lee surrendered to Grant, it is understood that we are talking about the commitment, not the actual work of surrender.

    When we are willing to surrender everything we have to Jesus in repentance and faith, at that point in time we are saved. The Holy Spirit indwells us and begins showing us things in our lives that need to be changed. This is the spiritual growth process, the surrender work, which will continue until we die physically.

    Jesus gave the command to be perfect ( téleios in Greek) as the “heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). He was not referring to sinless perfection when He used the word “perfect.” Christians cannot reach the state of sinless perfection while they are physically alive on earth. Rather, Jesus was commanding them to be complete and mature. The apostle Paul used the same word in Colossians 1:28 when he said, “And we proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, that we may present every man complete in Christ.” James also used this word when he said that endurance produced by the testing of a Christian’s faith produces a “perfect” (mature) Christian (James 1:4). Obviously, such testing of one’s faith takes time, but some Christians grow much faster than do other Christians over the same period of time. The Christians who grow fastest are those who take full advantage of the causes of spiritual growth.

    It is unfortunate that we cannot make the noun “faith” into a verb in English. The noun “faith” has a much stronger meaning that the noun “belief.” If my wife ever takes flying lessons, I may have to put my faith in her if she pilots a plane in which I am flying. The meaning is that I am trusting her with my life as she is piloting the plane. I have in a sense surrendered my entire life to her during that time she is the pilot. If I say that I have belief in my wife, the meaning is not the same. The noun “belief” usually refers only to intellectual assent. Since we do not have a verb containing the word “faith,” we use the verb “believe.” Thus, when I say I believe in my wife, it can mean that I intellectually assent to the fact of her existence, but more commonly it means that I trust her. The Greek noun pístis can refer to intellectual assent or to surrender. The Greek verb pisteúo can refer to giving intellectual assent or to being willing to surrender.

    It is clear from Scripture that true Christians (disciples) are those who have made the commitment to surrender their lives to Christ in repentance and faith:

    Luke 9:23-24 – And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, let Him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.”

    According to James 2:19, the demons believe. Surely you don’t believe they are saved.

    It's bedtime in South Korea, and I'm signing off until tomorrow morning. [​IMG]
     
  18. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    Again, I do not believe this is supported by scripture or by practical application. Just how much of "everything we have" constitutes all? I still have things that I find difficult to "surrender". I've been saved for almost 30 years. Part of me is willing and part of me is absolutely unwilling. This is normal. This inward battle has nothing directly to do with my initial salvation. (And never did.)

    I agree with this statement, but when a person initially gets saved, he can be saved and know he is saved with absolutely no fruit and absolutely no evidence. (Other than the Fruit and evidence of the Blood of Christ.)

    lacy
     
  19. koreahog2005

    koreahog2005
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    Lacy, I just saw your comment, so I’ll say something now before I go to sleep, and we can talk some more about it later if you wish. You said the following:

    I believe that non-Christians cannot surrender their lives to Jesus unless the Holy Spirit acts on them in a special way. I have discussed this action by the Holy Spirit quite a bit in the Calvinism/Arminian forum on the Baptistboard. Five-point Calvinists believe that depravity is counteracted by regeneration. Classic Arminians believe it is counteracted by universal, prevenient grace. Three-pointers (TUP, not TULIP) like me believe it is counteracted by the special conviction of the Holy Spirit. Check out Luke 9:23-24 (denying self, losing your life for Jesus) and Luke 14:26-33 (putting Jesus ahead of family and one’s own life, carrying one’s cross, counting the cost, being willing to give up all possessions). Also check out the narrative about the rich, young ruler who was not willing to surrender everything.

    At the time we are saved we make an ultimate, final decision to surrender as much of ourselves as we understand to Jesus. The fruits and good works come later as a result of salvation.
     
  20. DeaconLew

    DeaconLew
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    So in other words, salvation in eternity is by faithfulness (the ACT of excersizing faith: i.e. being good) and not belief. So, how much fruit is evidence that I am saved? If I go an entire year without fornicating does that prove I am saved? During that time I didn't steal, or any of the things in 1Cor 6, does this prove I am saved? So as long as Mormans, Devil's (not Jehovah) Witnesses, Muslims and Budhists do good, this proves that they are saved. But as soon as they fail in any of the points in 1Cor 6, or Gal 5 then that is PROOF that they are not saved, right?

    If any Calvinistic Arminian Nicolaitane can answer this question for me, I would greatly appreciate it.

    -DeaconLew
     

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