Lordship Salvation?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JRG39402, Jul 12, 2007.

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  1. JRG39402

    JRG39402
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    I am only 18 and maybe I am biting off more than I can chew, but I understood enough for the debate to make sense. I don't really know what I think in this area. I remembered Baptist Board and thought maybe you could help (I am SBC by the way). What is Lordship Salvation and what is the debate over it?
     
  2. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    Well in its basic form Lordship salvation is a back-loaded works-based eternal salvation plan. It says in order to be saved one must believe in Jesus Christ, the Lamb and make Christ Jesus Lord of your life.

    It is a failure to understand Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31. Works NEVER come into the picture of eternal salvation. We "should" do the works that were prepared for us to do by God, but it is not a guarantee as Lordship salvation would have one to believe.
     
  3. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    Now back to reality.



    Lordship Savation is a pejorative that describes the true salvation of people who have a true heart of God. Following Christ is not a requirement as some would assert but serving God is a result of a true salvation. Those who call it Lordship Salvation" play with semantics.

    Someone who has a heart of God and who is saved will desire to serve God. We do not always do it in perfection but the overall heart will be their. In Matthew 7:17 Jesus said every good tree bringeth forth good fruit. Godly service is ot a "requirement" of salvation but a result of a repentent and regenerated heart. John 15 speaks to this as well.

    Those who call it "Lordship Salvation" semantically place service to God as a requirement for salvation. Which they are correct in asserting that it is not a requirement for salvation. but they leave open the possibility that a true christian might fail to serve God all their life. Do not buy it. it is a false ideology.
     
  4. webdog

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    PM Lou Martuneac. He does a good job explaining this false doctrine.

    Also, do a search, as there have been a few threads over the last year on this topic. It is basically requiring an unregenerated person to make Christ the Lord over every aspect of their lives..to RECEIVE salvation.
     
    #4 webdog, Jul 12, 2007
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  5. Brother Bob

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    Eph 2:
    8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    11: Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12: That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15: Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    Eph 2: is talking about the "works of the Law Covenant". People have made this into a whole doctrine, on trying to make this into a man cannot do anything, even "believe in Christ", when it means you can't be saved by the works of the Law, circumcision, sacrifices, washing of the pots and the pans, etc. It even tells us so in the highlighted verse 11 and 15.

    Context!!!!
     
    #5 Brother Bob, Jul 12, 2007
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  6. EdSutton

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    Good start, Brother Bob. Please stay with it, and don't "fall back" or "draw back" like so many do, and negate all the good you have said here, by later subtly "backloading" works back into salvation. Keep 'em in discipleship and Christian growth and maturity, where they belong.

    Ed
     
  7. Brother Bob

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    I believe we do "good works" Ed; because we are saved. We do not do "good works" to receive salvation. If we have the "mind of Christ" , how could we not do good.

    I think that is a first for you Ed; to commend me on a post. I pray that we can continue on this road of fellowship. :)
     
    #7 Brother Bob, Jul 12, 2007
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  8. EdSutton

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    Not really Bob. I've posted "I agree." to your posts before. Just maybe not too often! :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
  9. Brother Bob

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    [​IMG] Same here Ed; :)
     
  10. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    Lordship Salvation is by no means a false teaching. I would encourage you as a seeker to read both sides of the arguments as you look to the Scriptures for better understanding.

    Do not let anyone on this board decide for you. Read and decide for yourself. I know you are honestly looking for some answers and you have come here looking for some. I would encourage you to pray about it and see what both sides have to say.

    1. John MacArthur on the issue:http://www.amazon.com/dp/0310394910/?tag=baptis04-20

    2. Zane Hodges on the issue:http://www.amazon.com/dp/0310519608/?tag=baptis04-20
     
    #10 TCGreek, Jul 12, 2007
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  11. Major B

    Major B
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    Forget Mac and Wallace--every scripture I can find which describes the life of a true believer shows fruit, in the form of a transforming moral and spiritual character. Not that that character saves anyone, but that if a person is saved, that character will show.

    "Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the Dead, and you shall be saved." Rom 10:9--Not works, but the proper expression of saving faith.

    (John 10:26-27) ""But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."

    Jesus describes what a sheep is--one whose life shows the fruit of obedience, one who has a personal relationship with God, and one who follows Christ

    (Gal 5:19-24) "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

    (1 Cor 6:9-11) "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

    (1 John 1:5-10) "This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

    (Mat 7:15-20) ""Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them."
     
  12. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Simplicity that is in Christ

    Hi JRG:

    WebDog suggested you contact me about the Lordship Salvation (LS) interpretation of the Gospel.

    I have to say that I have little time for a protracted discussion of this topic. My business and family commitments are very high this month. Normally (time permitting) I would offer great deal to you in this thread, but I am going to have to direct you to my web site where you can read many articles and discussions over this issue.

    Some one recommended reading MacArthur's The Gospel According to Jesus for the Lordship perspective and Absolutely Free by Zane Hodges from another perspective. MacArthur and Hodges are as far apart doctrinally on the Gospel as men can be from one another. Both have taken extreme positions at opposite ends of the theological pendulum swing. Both are wrong!

    As for Lordship Salvation: It is irrefutably a man-centered message that frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21). Lordship advocates insist lost men must make an upfront “whole-hearted commitment” to live in obedience to the Lord’s commands in "exchange" for salvation.

    They frontload saving faith with demands for a commitment to deny-self, bear the cross, and follow Christ. Imagine asking a lost man to make that kind of decision. He can’t possibly under understand what it is that is being required of him. Then if he makes that commitment thinking it saved him, he is going to find out real soon that he can’t live up to the commitment he made. Result is: frustration and doubt.

    LS flows from Calvinism, especially Total Inability and the extra-biblical teaching that regeneration precedes faith. LS advocates believe they are dealing with men that are regenerated, born again, before they ever expresses personal faith in Christ. So, when they seek and get that commitment to Christ they think they are dealing with a man who has been saved already. That is how they can claim a commitment to do the “good works” (Eph. 2:10) expected of a mature disciple of Christ is not a works based message.

    BY the way, I also take a very vocal stand against the Easy-Believism interpretation of the Gospel. There is a balance in the doctrine of salvation, but neither LS or Easy-Believism have that balance.

    At my site you’ll see I have written a book titled, In Defense of the Gospel. My site is primarily dedicated to a discussion of LS.

    Here are some links to certain articles that will help you understand what LS is, why it is antithetical to the Bible, how to recognize and refute this message that corrupts the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor. 11:3-4)

    John MacArthur’s Discipleship Gospel

    Impossible Decision: John 16:9-10

    The Relationship Between God’s Grace & Lordship Legalism

    Lordship Salvation’s “Barter” System

    There are many more, but these will give you a good head start.

    Yours faithfully,


    Lou Martuneac
     
    #12 Lou Martuneac, Jul 12, 2007
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  13. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    I know this might inevitably take me into a defense of what is called Calvinism. But I will proceed. I cannot stand by and read caricatures of Calvinism and say nothing. I will go into the teeth of the lion with the sword of the Spirt.

    To say that faith precedes faith is not an extra-biblical teaching. Before Lydia could have respond the what Paul was saying, "the Lord opened her heart" (Acts 16:14). Unless you think that is extra-biblical too.

    Again, this is a false representation. Go back and read up on classic Reformed theology. If you know what Reformed theology teaches about regeneration, you would not make such uninformed statement.

    No well-bred Calvinist, I know, holds to what you are saying. Regeneration does not mean that a person is already saved. Do your homework, I ask of you.

    You say that Zane Hodges is an extremist, I see no difference in this statement of yours: "That is how they can commitment to do the “good works” (Eph. 2:10) expected of a mature disciple of Christ is not a works based message."
     
    #13 TCGreek, Jul 12, 2007
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  14. Lou Martuneac

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    Because I have little time to debate this issue again, I am providing links to the following articles.

    The first is a summary of the extra-biblical regeneration before faith position.

    The second is a more detailed examination of this teaching, which is arrived at through logic and human reasoning rather than the revelation of Scripture.

    The Danger of Teaching Regeneration Precedes Faith


    Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

    And to keep this thread on the Lordship Salvation discussion, read Lordship's (Out-of-Order) Salvation.


    LM
     
  15. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    Let's deal with it here. This is a good setting.

    I know of extremists on both sides of an argument, but I will be wary of the man/woman who comes along and claims to have arrived.
     
  16. Lou Martuneac

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    TC:

    I am going to be blunt; Please check your ego at the door before posting those kinds of comments.


    LM
     
  17. Lou Martuneac

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    Start a new thread rather than bust this one. I do not have time to do both, and won't do a Calvinism debate in this LS thread.

    LM
     
  18. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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  19. TCGreek

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    I wish not to defend myself, but I only seek to correct caricatures. I too will be blunt, You are offering caricatures of Calvinism.

    I just finished reading Dr. RC Sproul's Faith Alone, in which he cautions evangelicals against the caricatures that have been painted of Rome, and then he proceeds to give an accurate account of what they teach, quoting from Rome's catechism. You can do that. No caricatures, that is all I ask of you.
     
  20. swaimj

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    TCGreek, here is the context in which "the Lord opened her heart" appears: "One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, WHO WAS A WORSHIPER OF GOD. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul...." (from the ESV)

    A question for you: If her "heart being opened" is a statement describing her regeneration, how was she earlier, as un ungerenerate person, worshipping God? I don't see how an unregenerate person can be a worshipper of God as Luke describes her.
     
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