Losing Salvation Pt. 2

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Arbo, Mar 26, 2011.

  1. Arbo

    Arbo
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    I wasn't sure where this would fit into the other thread going on now, so I'll ask my question in this one.

    Hebrews 10:26-29, (NKJV)

    For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

    but a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

    Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

    Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?


    I wonder what others' takes on this passage are. How is this compatable with the notion of eternal security? Thanks.
     
  2. freeatlast

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    I take it exactly as it reads and for what it means. Hebrews is to the Jew. After they have heard the truth of the messiah and the gospel but they reject the messiah and the gospel for salvation and they sin willfully there is no longer any sacrifice for them to rely on and they will suffer a punishment of the most severe kind (serious torment in hell) because they have trampled the son of God under foot by their rejection of Him.
     
    #2 freeatlast, Mar 26, 2011
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  3. Arbo

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    So you don't read it as being directed to Jewish christians, but toward practicing Jews? I ask because the author uses the word 'we', and I believe that Hebrews is written for Jewish christians. Interesting thought, though.
     
  4. Winman

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    I agree with FAL, and you must also compare this with Hebrews 6.

    Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
    7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
    8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
    9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

    This passage speaks of persons who have been "enlightened", they have "tasted" of the heavenly gift, they are "partakers" of the Holy Ghost, they have "tasted" of the good word of God, and the powers to come. They have been brought to "repentanace", and yet they have fallen away.

    There are only two possibilities here:

    #1 a person who is saved can fall away and be lost

    #2 a person can be enlightened, a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and brought to the point of repentance and yet not be saved.

    That's it. There really are no other possibilities here, if you know of another, please show it.

    Both of these refute Calvinism. Calvinism says a saved person cannot be lost, but it also says an unregenerate person cannot know the things of God.

    My personal belief is that an unregenerate person can be enlightened and understand the gospel to a great degree. They "taste" but they do not "eat". They can be influenced by the Holy Spirit, they can come under great conviction, they can understand that they are a lost sinner and that Jesus died for their sins.

    And yet, they willingly sin and refuse Christ because they love their sin.
     
    #4 Winman, Mar 26, 2011
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  5. Arbo

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    Winman- I see what you are saying, and based on those verses, I can can agree to the validity of your two possibilities. But...

    John 10:28,29
    And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
    My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.


    ...how does that reconcile with these verses with regard to the notion of eternal security?

    I'm not advocating either view, I'm looking for a better understanding of this.
     
  6. freeatlast

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    No, Hebrews 6 is speaking to the Jew also. Get in your mind that the book of Hebrews is to the Jew. To understand the book you have to take on the mind of a Jew and you need to understand Leviticus.
    All that which is being mentioned is what the Jewish people had experienced under the law. if they reject salvation now that it has come they cannot be renewed again unto repentance.
    If you hold that the passage means someone can lose their salvation then you also have to hold it means they cannot get saved again by the wording, but the passage is not speaking of a saved person. It is speaking of the Jewish people who had partook of the spirit in His working through them and all the miracles, they were enlightened by the word of God, they had tasted of the heavenly things with all the feasts and ceremonies and even the promise land. If they fall away now they can never again be renewed again unto repentance. That is why it does not say renewed to repentance again. The reason is that they have had it all and there is nothing left to show or give them so to conviince them and if they fall away now after all that they have seen and went through there is nothing more to show or tell them that would bring them back to repentance.

     
    #6 freeatlast, Mar 26, 2011
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  7. saved by grace

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    This verse can't be written only to Jews. First the author includes himself when he says " if we.".
    Secondly, the writer gives the example of a man that was "sanctified " by the blood of the covenant in verse 29. An unbeliever is not sanctified by the blood of Christ. This verse teaches that believers can fall away and lose their salvation through sin.
     
  8. freeatlast

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    I am not sure what you are talking about. The writer was a Jew by every commentator and or scholar I have ever listened to.
    Certainly an unbeliever is sanctified by the blood of the covenant if they believe. How do you think they get saved? This was written to the Jew and it is impossible to lose your salvation.
     
    #8 freeatlast, Mar 26, 2011
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  9. saved by grace

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    I suppose the writer was Jewish. The writer may have been Paul. The audience were Christian converts

    If they believe they are no longer an unbeliever. The verse says the man was sancrified by the blood of the covenant. That can only mean he was a saved believer. The verse says he will suffer "worse punishment" because he sinned after receiving the knowledge of the truth.
    By the blood of Christ.
    It was written to Jewish Christians that had been sancrified by the blood of the covenant. It's not impossible to lose your salvation according to this verse.
     
  10. saved by grace

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    The parable in Luke 8 tells us that the belief spoken of is one of saving faith.
    Luke 8;12 "Those by the wayside are they that hear, then cometh the devil and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."
    In context Jesus is clearly speaking about a saving faith, a belief unto salvation, "lest they should believe and be saved."
    In verse 13 it says that those on the rock received the word with joy and believe for awhile and fall away.
     
  11. freeatlast

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    Some did believe in Hebrews but they had not committed that belief unto salvation. I was there at one time. I had no question that all that was said about Jesus was true. I would even tell others, but I was also lost. A Christian cannot lose their salvation. You are a works Salvationist and scripture condemns those who teach salvation by works. Once a person is saved they never want to be free from the Lord.
     
  12. freeatlast

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    believing facts does not save. A person has to have faith, not just believe. These two examples were both lost.
    They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
     
  13. saved by grace

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    We need to deal with Luke 8 before interjecting any other passages. Jesus clearly says these people had saving faith. The Greek word the inspired text uses for believe is pisteuo and in context it is clearly a believing unto salvation, "lest they should believe ( pisteuo) and be saved."

    Luke 8:11-13 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe ( pisteuo) and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe ( pisteuo), and in time of temptation fall away

    According to Jesus these people had saving faith, they received the word with joy, believed for a while and then fell away.
     
  14. Don

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    I don't think you can focus on just the one word. Note that before the use of the word, it clearly says (in both Matthew and Luke) "these have no root."

    Edited to add:
    Note that there are 2 uses of "believe and" here. The first is believe and be saved; the second is believe and fall away. Thus, the emphasis that the word "believe" indicates a saving belief, is not contextually correct.

    In fact, if nothing else, you've emphasized what I was trying to say in the other thread about the difference between believing, and believing to the saving of the soul.
     
    #14 Don, Mar 27, 2011
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  15. freeatlast

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    No, according to Jesus these people had the word that could save but the devil comes and takes away the word before it happens. Look at the tenses.
     
  16. Arbo

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    I read this the same as you do.


    John 10:28,29
    And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
    My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

    Savedbygrace- What's your take on this? If no one is able to snatch us out of His hand, does that rule us out as the 'snatcher'? That is to say, is it possible to remove ourselves?

    See why there's the question about eternal security?
     
  17. HAMel

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    Do any of you think that constant controversy is fodder for Satan?

    If he isn't the author of confusion then who is?

    In today's world one Baptist Church advocates it necessary to belong to the greater good..., the Convention. Another BC claims it necessary to guard against losing your salvation. Another, you gotta be Independent. Some BC's have intermingled the need to speak in gibberish in order to fulfill the Salvation experience. Others, hold that absolutely no musical instruments are to be permitted inside the church and the controversy rages on and on and on. Is there no end to the madness?

    I asked the Lord to save me back in 1972. Along the way I've strayed on occasion but that quiet little voice spoke to me and I always returned home again. Faith is all I've got.

    Listening to a preacher educated at BJU, Tennessee Temple, Pensacola or any of the other institutions of higher learning is no big deal to me. If the old boy tells me I need to sing in the choir to be saved..., then I'm outta there.

    I am of the opinion that Salvation is so easy that even a cave man could acquire eternal life. Why is it so hard for so many others?
     
  18. Arbo

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    HAMel- Not sure if this rebuke is directed at me, but if it is, I can only say that I've had this question for some time. I believe, at least at least for my own sake, that it is an important one.
     
  19. saved by grace

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    It is absoloutely necessary to focus on the one word "believe." What is the precise meaning of pisteuo in this parable? Verse 12 tells us that the precise meaning of pisteuo is a believing unto salvation: "Lest they should believe and be saved."

    Jesus Himself tells us the precise meaning of believe. There aren't two meanings of the word in this parable.. Both are a belief unto salvation. He tells us that some hear the word and the devil takes this belief unto salvation out of their hearts. Then there are those who have the same belief and they "believe for awhile" and then they fall away. Just because they have "no root" doesn't mean they never believed in the first place. They did have a saving faith but in time of tempation fell away.
    Jesus then mentions those who "having heard the word keep it and bring forth fruit."
    All of them had saving faith but some fell away and some remained in God's grace as John 15:1-10 tell us.
     
  20. saved by grace

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    Agree. They had the word that could save. They had the faith that could save and the devil takes it away.
    Then the second group has that same belief and they fell away in the time of temptation. Just becasue they had no root doesn't mean they never believed in the first place. The context tells us that they had a belief that could save.
     

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