Love requires choice?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, May 3, 2014.

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  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    Love requires choice.
    Have you ever heard that little gem?

    Consider...
    The opposite is true.

    The greatest love is such that it renders the will IMPOTENT.

    I cannot HELP but love my children. I do not CHOOSE to love them. I cannot WILL to STOP loving them.

    Some can will themselves to stop loving their children. And what do we say of the love they had? It was not very great love if it can stop. We say, "If you ever loved your children the way I love mine, you'd still love them. You wouldn't be able to stop!"

    Most of us love our children so much that our will is gone- we cannot BUT love them. I cannot BUT be ever concerned for their well being. I have no choice in the matter.

    But an infinitely greater example is the kind of love that has existed eternally within the Triune Godhead.

    God the Father does not have the ability to STOP loving God the Son. To not love God the Son would be the pinnacle of sin and evil. Since God CANNOT choose to do or be evil, his love for that which his own perfect goodness demands be loved, His Son, cannot BUT be unyielding.

    God the Son does not CHOOSE to love God the Father- if by choice you mean the ability exists to either love or not love. He cannot BUT love God the Father. To fail to love God the Father for an INSTANT would be the most grievous of sins. Since God CANNOT sin and Jesus IS God, he has no choice BUT to always love God the Father.

    The greatest love is not the love of God for man or of man for God. The greatest love is the love of God for God. If love requires choice (the ability to love or not love) then GOD HIMSELF DOES NOT LOVE.

    The GREATEST love is a million MILES AWAY from "free will."

    Deficient love is infected with will.

    Great love is void of it.

    Let us pray not, "Oh God, strengthen my will that I may love you, my family and my fellow man more." NO!! Let us pray, "Oh God give me such love that my will to do otherwise is ever more swallowed up in it!!"

    Grant it, God, we pray.
     
  2. convicted1

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    This is a very good thread topic, and I pray that it becomes a fruitful one...


    This is a DEEP question. I agree with the jist of what you say, and also agree with you loving your children is a natural occurance and not a choice. But in regards to God and His love for His sheep, I do read things such as.....'You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you....'(John 15:16), and then 'We were chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world....'(Eph. 1:4)........'the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth......'(Deut. 7:6)..........'and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth......'(Deut. 14:2)........'Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.....(1 Kings 19:18), just to name a few.


    So, how is it that God chose us, His sheep, over the others, the goats? Did He not choose us? Was it His love for us that caused Him to choose us? Did He literally hate the goats? I ask these to further this topic along.
     
  3. Winman

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    Yes, I am the person who said this in another thread.

    Baloney.

    More baloney.

    And many parents do not love their children. Did you hear about the 4 year old who lived in squalor and died when he ate rat poison the other day?


    Sounds cute, but love is a choice. You yourself just said a person can will to stop loving their children. That is a choice. Busted.

    You sound like one terrific guy.

    And I am so glad you are here to explain this to us.

    I think God does have the ability to choose, it is shown over and over in scripture. Does he not say I have "chosen" you? If he chose us, then he had the ability to reject us.

    I agree, it would be sin, and God chooses not to sin. Jesus implied he could lie in the scriptures, therefore he chooses not to sin.

    Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

    Did Jesus say, "I cannot lie" here? No, Jesus said that "if" he were to deny that he knew his Father, then he would be a liar. The word "if" denotes possibility. Jesus implied he had the ability to lie if he so chose to do so, therefore he does not sin by CHOICE.

    The greatest love was not God for himself, but for man, God came down and became a lowly man, lived a sinless life, and died on a cross for our sins. He did not have to do this, he chose to do this.

    That Jesus chose to do this is clearly shown in scripture when the soldiers came to take Jesus in the garden.

    Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

    Jesus did not have to be taken prisoner by these soldiers, he told Peter plainly that he could call on his Father, and his Father "shall" presently give him more than twelve legions of angels to rescue him. Jesus allowed himself to be taken by CHOICE.

    Totally false.

    False.

    False.

    Such a prayer is a choice itself. Why would you pray for love if you have no choice but to love?

    Busted again.
     
    #3 Winman, May 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2014
  4. convicted1

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    So Brother Wes, did you choose to love all your children, or did you already love them, even whilst in the womb? Love is an emotion, and not a choice, per se...
     
  5. evangelist6589

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    You are one confrontational and divisive person WinMan. Why are you like this? Can you explain this?


     
  6. pinoybaptist

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    I will have to go, on the surface (meaning, as I read it), with Winman on this matter.
    God had a choice when He knew the first Adam would sin.
    He could of said: bah !! forget it, why should I even think of saving this race?lemMe create a new one. totally beholden to Me.
    but He went on and created man, nevertheless.
    but being God, who encompasses time, and dwells in eternity, He had knowledge of EVERYTHING in His creation, He knew every man and OF every man who would exist from the beginning of time, to its end.
    and then He made ANOTHER choice.
    between those whom He will redeem from his iniquities, and those whom He will leave to their transgressions, because unlike Him, the entire humanity will be subject to their own willful selves and will make choices inimical to their own welfare, in as far as sin and holiness is concerned.
    in exercise of His choice, He wrote down names in the book of life, and those whose names He wrote down, He called, from the begnning, My People.
    Scriptures refer to them as His saints, His sheep, and Scriptures tell us that at the last day, after the trump sounds, when every man who ever lived on earth, IN TIME, stands before Him, He will look at this Book and if anyone's name is not found in it according to His choice, then that one is destined to eternal wrath and separation from Him, away from His presence, at His left hand.
    so, yeah, God does exercise choice.
    His choice. His will.
    and those whom He chose (past tense) to them gave He power to become the sons of God, to them He gave His Son as His gift, and they as His gift to them.
    Brothers, don't do a knee-jerk defense of election and grace.
    Think it through.
    I have seen a lot of honest, God-fearing, Christ-loving Christians demolished in arguments by those who teach that Christ is simply a special man, not God and man, because they immediately deny that Christ is man and forget that Scriptures both teach and imply He is true God, and true man.
    If we come right down to it, there is only One Uncreated in the entire universe and throughout eternity, with very real choice, tied and in accord with His good, righteous, and just, nature, and that is, God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    All others ?
    Created beings. including angels, and if He does not step in for them, they will make choices in accord with their imperfections.
    And whether He elects one unto Himself, or turns His back on one, He is still just, righteous, and holy.
     
  7. Winman

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    I choose to be.

    Can't you read scripture? Did Jesus tell Peter he did not have to be taken in the garden? Did he tell Peter he could have called on his Father and his Father would presently send more than twelve legions of angels to rescue him?

    Yes or no?

    So, Jesus CHOSE to be taken and nailed on a cross for our sins. He could have chosen otherwise. And if Jesus had chosen otherwise, the Father would have granted his prayer and delivered him from those soldiers. God did not force or compel Jesus to obey, he gave him his choice.

    Love is a choice, this is why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, to give Adam and Eve the choice of loving and obeying him, or the choice or rejecting and disobeying him. God does not force or compel anyone to love him.

    You should try reading the Bible and put away your false teachers, maybe you would learn something for once.
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    what you fail to see and understand,as did Peter, is that Jesus' choice was made and settled in eternity past, not here in time.

    wrong. it is to PROVE created beings, like you and I, left on their own, will not choose good over evil, God the Creator over the devil.
    again, you forget that AMONG THE TREES WHOSE FRUIT THEY MAY FREELY EAT OF, is the Tree of Life itself, yet Adam and Eve chose to be as gods according to the word of satan, and against the warning of certain death (physical or spiritual, or both, you figure it out) fairly given to them. The first Adam was earthy with earthy choices and preferences.
    Christ, on the other hand, is OF GOD, had the nature of God in Him, or in the words of Paul:

    Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    Now this I say , brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1st Corintians 15:46-50

    I think you should heed your own advice.
     
  9. quantumfaith

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  10. Luke2427

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    The point is not that there is no love that CAN involve choice. The point is that the GREATEST love does not involve choice.

    The greatest love is that which has existed eternally between the persons of the Trinity.
    There was never in eternity past a CHOICE made to start loving each other.

    Furthermore, they cannot stop.

    Hence, not only is it false to assert that "love requires choice" but the fact is that the greatest kind of love by it's very nature is totally void of choice.
     
  11. Winman

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    That is not what Jesus said, read again:

    Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

    Jesus refutes your view TWICE in this one verse alone.

    If there was no tree of knowledge of good and evil, and no prohibition against it, then Adam and Eve could not possibly sin, but their obedience would not have been by love or choice. Love requires choice. God does not force or compel people to love him, they must freely choose to love him.

    You could program a robot to endlessly tell you it loved you, would that satisfy your need to be genuinely loved?

    And Jesus directly told us he had choice whether you want to believe it or not. That is the whole point of Mat 26:53, to tell us he had choice.

    What does this scripture have to do with the subject at hand?

    I do read the Bible, and that is why I could show you a direct example that Jesus CHOSE to obey his Father. Jesus himself told us he had choice, he could have called on his Father to deliver him from the soldiers that came to take him, but he willingly obeyed his Father and allowed himself to be taken and crucified.

    I do not depend on John MacArthur or Paul Washer to TELL me what to believe.
     
    #11 Winman, May 3, 2014
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  12. Winman

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    Oh, so suddenly you agree with me.

    Jesus loved his Father, and Jesus directly told us he had choice in Mat 26:53. He didn't have to go with those soldiers that came to take him, he allowed them to take him to fulfill his Father's will.

    You are refuted right there.


    And you are wrong, and Mat 26:53 proves it. Jesus could have called on his Father, and his Father would have sent angels to rescue him. He didn't HAVE to go to the cross if he chose not to. Jesus wasn't forced or compelled by his nature or anything else to be taken and crucified, but by his own willing obedience he chose to.

    And scripture proves you are absolutely wrong. Again.
     
  13. Luke2427

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    How do you think Matthew 25 teaches that God the Son could choose to stop loving God the Father?
     
  14. Winman

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    Did you mean Matthew 26:53? I do not know why you are asking about chapter 25.

    Read Mat 26:53 for yourself, what does it say?

    Mat 26:50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.
    51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
    52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
    53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
    54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
    55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
    56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

    We know from John 18:10 that it was Peter who drew his sword and cut off a servant (Malchus) of the high priest's ear.

    We read in verse 52 that Jesus told Peter to put his sword away, and then in verse 53 he explains that he could now pray to his Father, and his Father "shall" presently give him more than twelve legions of angels to rescue him from these soldiers who had taken hold of him in vs. 50.

    Jesus was not forced to go along with these soldiers if he did not want to go. Jesus leaves no doubt that his Father would positively grant his request and rescue him if he so desired.

    So, there you go, Jesus had option and choice. He could have absolutely chosen not to be taken and die on the cross if that is what he wanted, and the Father would have given him his way. But thankfully for all of us, Jesus chose to do his Father's will and go to the cross and die for us.

    You may not like that Jesus had choice, but he did. He said so himself.
     
    #14 Winman, May 3, 2014
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  15. Luke2427

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    You still haven't answered my question. How does that passage teach that God the Son had the real ability to commit the worst sin imaginable- to NOT love God?
     
  16. evangelist6589

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    God grants the gift of faith to His elect. Can you read scripture?

    No one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father. (John 6:65)

    All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me. (John 6:37

    Correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth (2 Tim 2:25).
     
  17. evangelist6589

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  18. Winman

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    I don't think I could prove that to you. You have already made up your mind.

    What I have proved is that Jesus obeyed his Father by choice. He could have done otherwise, Mat 26:53 absolutely implies that. And if you are honest you know that.

    If your view is correct, then Jesus could not imply that it was possible for him to pray to his Father to be rescued, that would be a lie.

    And Jesus did not imply it was simply possible, he implied that he could indeed pray to his Father for rescue as a FACT.
     
  19. evangelist6589

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    I am not sure whom I would side with in this debate. The hyper Calvinist or a semi-Pelagianist. Or is WinMan a full Pelagianist?


     
  20. Winman

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    Why don't you ask John MacArthur or Paul Washer and see what they tell you?

    Why can't you simply believe scripture? Did Jesus imply that he could have prayed to his Father, and his Father would send more than twelve legions of angels to rescue him if he desired?

    Doesn't that prove Jesus obeyed his Father by choice?

    Think for yourself for once.
     
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