Love your enemies?

Self-defense. I understand the pacifist position having held it briefly in my formative years before I realized that we have a right to self-defense as individuals and as a nation. In Romans 13 we are told that the government does not bear the sword in vain against evil doers.

 

No, it doesn't.

BTW, "love" your enemies does not mean we have to like what they do. The "nuke 'em" mentality is likely shared by those who may not know the difference.

 

Who said that?

 

Hating your enemy is a self-destructive thing to do.

Recognize that we must sometimes use violence, and that there are evil people.

But don't be seduced into hatred.

 

Frankly, from what I've seen posted on this board, along with what I've heard from some prominent conservative Christian pulpits, it is largely ignored. Focusing on Romans 13 and taking it out of context doesn't negate Jesus' words. It is very typical of conservative Christians to pull individial verses out of the scripture as "verse by verse laws" without considering the basic interpretive principle of lining everything up with what Jesus said.

Something is missing in a lot of the expression of conservative Christianity. There is a lot of hard-line insistence on doctrinal purity, lock step conformity, and rejection of anyone who thinks, looks or acts differently. Many people, in expressing themselves, seem to be bitter or angry at those who don't share their opinion or follow their life philosophy. THere is almost a joy in expressing a violent anger at people who are different.

It's a credibility issue. The Apostle Peter encouraged believers to defend their faith against the untruths of pagan religion, but to do this with gentleness and respect, so that there would be no reason for others to speak evil about Christians or their faith. This hard line, "in your face" attitude of judgement and vengeance only confirms the beliefs of Iraqis and other Moslems about both Americans and Christians.

There have been few quotes from the words of Christ himself in these threads. There is a lot of heated debate, and every now and then a verse, taken out of its context, will get thrown around as a prooftext. But the most important words in the whole Bible, the redemptive message of Jesus Christ himself, is avoided. What does that say?

I've been reading and posting on this message board for about a month now. I've learned some things, been entertained, laughed a bit, felt convicted by some things and thought about a lot of things. Most of all, the Holy Spirit has used this board to convince me that the agonizing decision that my wife and I made several years back to leave our Baptist identity and church and move on was the right decision to make.

 

Is that partly because you believe the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased?

 

It is probably because of Conservative Christianity that America has spread the Gospel throughout this planet. It is probably because of our Judeo-Christian roots that America is the first in line, as a benevolent nation, whenever there is a world disaster anywhere in the planet, to offer food, medical aid, search and rescue missions, shelter, clothing, and money, and leads the world in the number of NGOs serving mankind - EVEN to our stated enemies (like N. Korea & Iran of late). It is because of Conservative Christians and principles that Mr. Gorbachev "tore down that wall!"

What other nation do you know who would drop food to the thousands of refugees at the borders of Afghanistan who were trying to flee from the brutality of the Taliban? What other Nation do you know who would have the military in a war zone rebuilding the infrastructure of the country, giving teddy bears and clothing to children, school supplies, food, medicine? What other nation do you know who would take enemy wounded to their own medics for medical/surgical intervention? Is that not showing "love" for one's enemies?

I'm sorry you can find no good in Conservative Christians or Fundamentalists. I truly am. I suppose if it was up to you, we would no longer have a military. Probably not police either. And it goes without saying, you probably are all for doing away with the 2nd Amendment. No one needs a gun to defend themselves because Jesus said to "turn the other cheek." Talk about prooftexting.

 

I respect Rosell's pacifism. It's too bad that apparently he thinks that in order to be a Christian up on his level that everyone else has to hold to pacifism as well.

 

The Galatian sez:

Just for those of you who don't believe in miracles today, you've just seen one!

I AGREE WITH GALATIAN!!

 

It is probably because of Conservative Christianity that America has spread the Gospel throughout this planet. It is probably because of our Judeo-Christian roots that America is the first in line, as a benevolent nation, whenever there is a world disaster anywhere in the planet, to offer food, medical aid, search and rescue missions, shelter, clothing, and money, and leads the world in the number of NGOs serving mankind - EVEN to our stated enemies (like N. Korea & Iran of late). It is because of Conservative Christians and principles that Mr. Gorbachev "tore down that wall!"

What other nation do you know who would drop food to the thousands of refugees at the borders of Afghanistan who were trying to flee from the brutality of the Taliban? What other Nation do you know who would have the military in a war zone rebuilding the infrastructure of the country, giving teddy bears and clothing to children, school supplies, food, medicine? What other nation do you know who would take enemy wounded to their own medics for medical/surgical intervention? Is that not showing "love" for one's enemies?

I'm sorry you can find no good in Conservative Christians or Fundamentalists. I truly am. I suppose if it was up to you, we would no longer have a military. Probably not police either. And it goes without saying, you probably are all for doing away with the 2nd Amendment. No one needs a gun to defend themselves because Jesus said to "turn the other cheek." Talk about prooftexting. </font>[/QUOTE]And how do you interpret that passage?

It is interesting that you got all of that out of what I said. Your diatribe here, quite an angry and bitter one at that, proves my point, thank you.

No doubt a significant portion of the "spreading of the gospel around this planet," particularly in the 19th and 20th century, has been done by American Christians. Not all conservative, though. Some of those Pentecostals and Charismatics that you despise for believing that "the gifts of the spirit have ceased" are responsible for a good part of it, along with those liberal Presbyterians, Anglican/Episcopalians and Lutherans. The majority of the work of spreading the gospel has been done by the Roman Catholic Church, evidenced in their presence in more countries in the world than any other Christian group. But of course, as a conservative Christian, you've already decided that most of those in the above groups aren't true Christians because they're not on your level, don't hold your views and don't operate the way you do. Go ahead and admit it. I'm sure you believe that.

I have no argument with the fact that this country is the first on the scene of any major disaster with food and aid, regardless of how that country has treated us. North Korea's recent misfortune is an excellent example. That's why America has so much credibility in the world. We don't operate like most of the rest of the world. That's why what happened in the Iraqi prison was such a shock. But from the arguments that you and some of your ilk have waged in these threads, you resent and hate the fact that America is so generous, and if you were in charge, you would discontinue any kind of aid or assistance to any country except those that grovelled at your feet and acknowledged that you were the righteous voice of truth on earth. You've said that in so many words. So have many others here. Since you associate yourself with "conservative Christianity," I have to assume that you are stating a viewpoint that you believe represents that perspective. I have to take you at your word.

You said, "No one needs a gun to defend themselves because Jesus said 'turn the other cheek.' Talk about prooftexting."

Maybe so, but let me point out, those are your words, I never said that.

You also said, "Is that partly because you believe the gifts of the spirit have not ceased?" I'll answer that question directly. Yes, I believe the gifts of the spirit have not ceased. I know that from both the scripture and from having experienced a couple of spiritual gifts myself. Are you saying that the gifts of the spirit have ceased?

 

I assume you mean the miraculous gifts. I totally disagree with you.

But this is not exactly a political topic.

 

Since I can't participate in "Baptist Only" forums, why don't I start the question in "Other Religions/Doctrines?"

 

So, Rosell, why don't you tell us how you really feel?

My diatribe was angry & bitter? Didn't mean for it to come off that way, but if you think that's bad, you should see my diatribe when I really am angry & bitter... I can promise you there wasn't an angry or bitter thought in my head when I posted that, except towards the ACLU.

ROFL!

Actually I don't. But you seem to have a preconception about what I believe. Maybe you have all Conservative Christians, particularly Baptists, put into a pidgeon hole, eh? I'll even tell you something else to knock the chair out from under you (and some of the members on here can vouch for it),....get ready now....

I actually believe....

it is possible...

for a Catholic to be...

...

born again! GASP!

That's a pretty mean accusation with no basis. Especially since you're a newcomer on the board. The word "spew" comes to mind.

Actually, I am proud of the fact that America is so generous and benevolent. I would discontinue foreign aid to countries who are supporting terrorists. Like Egypt. Like Palestine. Where the money that is supposed to go for food to the people is sitting in Arafat's bank accounts.

Good. Then I'm going to ask the Lord to bless you by giving you the gift of discernment so you'll learn not to paint all Conservative Christians with such a broad brush. The brothers and sisters I personally know of other denominations and hang with are just as Conservative as I am on core issues and their politics even though we may disagree on some theology. Broad brush painting is what liberals usually accuse conservatives of doing, isn't that ironic, LOL.

No I'm not. I'm one of those rare Baptists who believes the gifts of the Spirit did not cease with the early church. Born and raised as IFB PK. And in my youth (way before your time), I was active in the Jesus Movement (1970s). Played the tamborine and sang Phil Keaggy songs, worship and praise songs, way before it became Baptist mainstream. Have got a younger brother who was an AOG missionary to Senegal (Muslim), ministered to national pastors in Sierra Leone (where Christians have been slaughtered by Muslims/al Qaeda over the diamond trade), Liberia, and Ivory Coast, who now pastors an AOG church, where I once was a member in good standing. Oh, and that huge church supports our military - even has some members over in Iraq right now. Now how about all them apples?

BTW, just so you know, I have the gift of discernment.

 

Hey, Lady Eagle, I was only taking you at your word. In your previous post, you pretty much spoke for me, so I thought I'd return the favor.

BTW, Discernment is one of the gifts I already have.

Didn't mean to come off mean spirited. I was interpreting your remarks about Iraq. I thought you made yourself pretty clear about that. And in your response, you pretty much stated the same thing. Foreign aid comes with qualification. If we do that, then the terrorists have succeeded at getting us to do part of what they've wanted from the beginning.

If you want to discontinue aid to countries that support terrorists, then you'd have to add Israel and Saudi Arabia to your list. The Saudi royal family, good friends of and business associates of our own dear George Bubba Dubya, funnel money to Osama Bin Laden, most of it from the pockets of hard working Americans (like myself, and I gather, yourself) who are being robbed blind at the gas pump these days. It's documented. Actually, I think there is a marriage connection between the families. Israel sends rockets and grenades into residential neighborhoods of Palestinian towns on the West Bank, murdering innocent civilians in the hopes of also catching an occasional terrorist. And before you point out that this is in retaliation for the suicide bombers that kill innocent Israeli's (which I will also agree is a terrorist act) the fact of the matter is that retaliation requires the same disrespect and disregard for human life that the suicide bombers display. What's the difference? There is no difference.

It's hard not to paint conservative Christians with a broad brush when a group of them advocate vengeance, brutality, and a general "eye for eye" mentality in dealing with Iraqis, most of whom are not terrorists. It seems to be a pattern. It is observable in these threads. I pointed it out as a personal observation and related it to similar experiences I had when I pastored a Southern Baptist church. I currently pastor a church of 350 people who all basically left conservative Christian churches because they observed the same kind of thing.

It sure seems fair to lash back at others in the same way they have attacked us. The world thinks that's fair. The Bible teaches that it isn't, and at the top of the Bible, Jesus teaches that Christians must resist the temptation to be like the world.

I started a topic over on the "other religions/doctrines" forum about the issue of spiritual gifts for today. I think we might actually agree on something over there. I'll bring it to the top if I can.

 

Christ for Kildare:

Lady Eagle:

I did. And I am not going to apologize this time. They did not cut, as in chop, Berg's head off. His executioner sawed it off with his knife.