Loveship Salvation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Aug 15, 2008.

  1. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK folks. Here's a new angle alltogether from someone who is out to debunk Lou Martuneac's book In Defense of the Gospel, Nathan Busenitz.

    Is this accurate, why or why not? Is he referring to loving Christ ONCE one is converted, or is the love of Christ needed FOR salvation? If it's the former, his view of LS doesn't square with JM or Mr. Goodman.

    http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/11/09/hey-i-thought-the-lordship-discussion-was-over-part-1/
     
    #1 webdog, Aug 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2008
  2. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I believe love will be there for the Savior and Lord, but I don't believe we can actually quantitate that love.

    I can understand how someone cannot have some kind of degree of love for the One who saved them and keep them saved.
     
  3. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    Yes, it's accurate for the reasons he gave. Basically, its what the Bible teaches. And I would add...if you love Jesus, you will keep His commandments. Edited in: He made the keeping the commandments point. sorry.. "To summarize, then, if we are not willing to keep His commands, we do not love Christ. John 14:15 is clear on this point."

    As best I can tell, the "love of Christ needed FOR salvation" of Lou is HIS interpretation of JM.
     
  4. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    Ooooh that is good! :thumbs:
     
  5. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0


    Is this implying that those who disagree with the LS position do not agree with this statement? It seems pretty free of any LS vs. non-LS views to me. Of course salvation occurs at the moment of conversion. I've always believed that (since being saved that is). And one is a new creature at that moment. I also believe one has a love for Jesus at that moment that grows over time.

    How is this a Lordship position and not a non-LS position? I'm confused.
     
  6. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    Marica,

    I am pretty sure your confusion is the result from Lou's misrepresentation of the LS position. The Editor in Chief of the website referenced here is John MacArhtur. The author of the article referenced is "Nathan Busenitz serves as the personal assistant to John MacArthur, as well as the director of the Shepherds’ Fellowship. Nathan is also the author of Living a Life of Hope (Barbour Books, 2003), and a co-editor (with both John and Phil) of Fool’s Gold? (Crossway, 2005)."

    What does this tell us? That this is the LS of MacArthur and not the interpretation that LM has presented to the BB.
     
  7. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for clearing that up!

    Maybe I should stay away from these threads, which is going to be hard given that they are proliferating like little bunnies on this forum! I wonder if people will eventually move on to something else? I hope so!

    I've been posting in Current Events today for a change, started a thread there on a Wash Post article today on young evangelicals being torn in th election.
     
  8. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27

    I started a new thread on a different subject too!
     
  9. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    *Correction:

    I can't understand how someone cannot have some kind of degree of love for the One who saved them and keep them saved.
     
  10. Free Gracer

    Free Gracer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2005
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nathan Busenitz says that Lou Martuneac preaches a Lordship Gospel

    Just about a year ago, the Pulpit Magazine, which is a web-magazine done by John MacArthur and associates, put out a series on Lordship Salvation. During this time, Lou Martuneac highly advertised his book and spent a considerable amount of time in discussions happening in the comments threads of these posts.

    Nathan Busenitz, the managing editor of the Pulpit Magazine, read Lou Martuneac's book, and he had this to say about it:

    After reading his book, I am convinced that Lou Martuneac is, in actuality, a proponent of Lordship Salvation.

    There, I said it.

    I know, I know… this is probably not what most of you expected to read...

    But it’s true… after reading his book, I’m convinced... the repentance Lou promotes is, essentially, the repentance of lordship advocates. Thus, because he sees it as necessary to saving faith, I am left with only one conclusion:

    Whether he realizes it or not, Lou Martuneac is teaching a lordship gospel.

    I can see where Nathan gets this. Lou Martuneac's definition of repentance is the same as Lordship Salvation. Here are some quotes from Lou Martuneac's book (remember, Lou regards repentance as necessary for eternal salvation):

    “Repentance is an attitude that always results in action. ...Biblical repentance will produce a change of life evidenced by a new behavior as one yields to the working of God’s Spirit” (pp. 111-112).

    “...biblical repentance... [is] [w]hen a man understands that he is a sinner, and makes a definite, on-purpose decision to confess that sin, and turn from the old ways...” (p. 121).

    “Good works... are a by-product of repentance and saving faith. They are the evidences of genuine repentance and an unceasing gratitude for God’s mercy” (p. 123).

    Lou Martuneac's comments about repentance could be found in any textbook advocating Lordship Salvation. Repentance has always been a huge battleground in the discussion between Lordship Salvation and Free Grace Theology. But Lou Martuneac sides with the Lordship Salvationist.
     
  11. Free Gracer

    Free Gracer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2005
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Love is the mark of an abiding disciple of Christ

    I agree.

    But it is quite another thing to say that someone who is born again will always love Jesus. Jesus makes it clear that only those who are obeying His commondments love Him. The Westminster Confession tells us:

    Chapter 17, Article 3
    Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalancy of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their perseverance, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and prevalancy others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

    The Canons of Dordt tell us:

    Article 4: The Danger of True Believers' Falling into Serious Sins
    ... those converted are not always so activated and motivated by God that in certain specific actions they cannot by their own fault depart from the leading of grace, be led astray by the desires of the flesh, and give in to them... not only can they be carried away by the flesh, the world, and Satan into sins, even serious and outrageous ones, but also by God's just permission they sometimes are so carried away...

    Article 5: The Effects of Such Serious Sins
    By such monstrous sins, however, they greatly offend God, deserve the sentence of death, grieve the Holy Spirit, suspend the exercise of faith, severely wound the conscience, and sometimes lose the awareness of grace for a time--until, after they have returned to the way by genuine repentance, God's fatherly face again shines upon them.

    Notice that Westinster states that one may fall into grievous sins, staying there for an indefinite time and have their hearts hardened. Dordt asserts that true Christians may suspend the exercise of thier faith!

    Needless to say, at the time a truly converted soul falls into grievous sins, having his heart hardened, and their faith suspended, they are not at that time following Christ's commandments, therefore are not loving Christ.

    It can be thus deductively shown that not all true Christians love the Lord.

    The syllogism would be like this:

    A) True converted Christians may fall into grievous sins, have their hearts hardened, suspend the excercise of faith, and for a time continue therein. These backsliders are in a present state of disobeying and failing to keep Christ's commandments.
    B) In John 14:23-24 we read that those who presently love Jesus are keeping His commandments and those who do not presently love Jesus are not keeping His commandments.

    therefore

    C) Those true coverted Christians who are presently in a time of grievous sin, hardened hearts, and suspended faith, are not loving Jesus.

    Remember what James said!

    James 4:4-5
    4Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain,"The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?

    James is addressing true Christians here. He is warning them to keep from making friends with the world, because that would make them enemies of God. The Spirit of God dwelling in James' intended readers is yearning jealously!

    Love is the mark of an abiding disciple of Christ. The one caught in grievous sin is not at that moment abiding.
     
  12. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    That is very helpful, thanks. Why do you suppose he then seeks to show that LS is false?
     
  13. Free Gracer

    Free Gracer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2005
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lou is a strict Fundamentalist. They are usually known for what they are against. Lou wishes to speak out against Lordship Salvation but is curiously found in their camp in the very important battleground issue of repentance.

    It is confusing and inconsistent.
     
  14. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    Perhaps then its calvinsim he doesn't like.
     
  15. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    What does this mean to you?
     
  16. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm wondering if your avatar reveals some ulterior motives, and disdain for Lou. I see you call yourself "free gracer" with a picture of Zane Hodges' book as your avatar...the same Zane Hodges that Lou M has repeatedly called out on the "crossless gospel" issue.
     
  17. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bingo!

    Give that man the kewpie doll!

    I do not publicly identify any other who has chosen to keep their identity hidden behind some 'anonymous marker' (including webdog) for I will assume they have their own reason(s) for so doing, but will merely say that Lou Martuneac has locked horns with free gracer.

    Cancha' just feel th' love? :D

    Ed
     
  18. Goldie

    Goldie
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    0
    Um............. no?

    I guess ya'll never know, because only God knows his heart and true motives. That's why we are to examine another person's doctrine, not their heart/motives, simply because it's only God that can examine a man's heart and motives, because only He can see into our hearts and know our thoughts.

    I find something like this really disconcerting. It's like, if you can't convince someone of your stance, and you're so self-absorbed in your own self-righteousness tht all you can see is the speck in everyone else's eye, while you have a huge log in your own.

    Try and discern or judge them by their doctrine, not by "wondering" about something - that way it will be more believable.
     
    #18 Goldie, Aug 16, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 16, 2008
  19. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    0
    A Caution

    Caution to all BB Readers:

    FreeGracer is Antonio da Rosa (aka- Sock Puppet: fg me).

    da Rosa is the most passionate and vitriolic defender of the Crossless/Deityless gospel that was originated by Zane Hodges. The Crossless gospel is promoted by Hodges, Bob Wilkin and the Grace Evangelical Society.

    Any man who reads the egregious doctrinal errors of Hodges and da Rosa immediately conclude these men are heretics of the first order.

    The Crossless gospel of GES is an assault on the gospel and deity of Jesus Christ. I am out of time for today. I must guide you to my blog for detailed documentation of the heresy of the Crossless gospel.

    Please read

    Heresy of the Crossless Gospel: Verified & Affirmed

    Is REDEFINED Free Grace Theology- Free Grace Theology?

    Also read Jon Perreault's, The Heretic in Antonio
     
  20. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did base my assessment on the doctrine, but the avatar further fueled my suspicions. Any "free gracer" who supports Lordship Salation is a confused individual.
     

Share This Page

Loading...