LS/Calvinism: Two Errors, One Departure

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lou Martuneac, Jul 29, 2008.

  1. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear BB Readers:

    Is salvation only for those who are willing to forsake everything?

    John MacArthur affirms this is the saving message of Lordship Salvation. He wrote,
    MacArthur is calling on the lost for a commitment to, “forsake everythingFOR salvation. This is not just over what should follow and be part of salvation. No, MacArthur says that to become a Christian a commitment to “forsake everything” is required FOR salvation.

    Now I opened this new thread want to discuss to how the LS apologists deal with the disturbing implications of the Lordship Salvation interpretation of the Gospel.

    First, we have of course witnessed the mantra of “misrepresentation.” That is never going to go away because the Lordship apologists seek to redirect attention away from the obvious errors of Lordship advocates. They seek to avoid dealing plainly with the extreme statements such as the one above by MacArthur, and they attempt to create a personality clash where there is none. No man who rejects LS is safe form cries of “misrepresentation.” If you disagree with LS, you ether do not understand, can’t understand or are misrepresenting Lordship Salvation. You note a strong sense of Intellectual elitism coming from some of the LS apologists.

    Second, LS apologists always retreat to the extra-biblical presuppositions drawn from the circle logic of five point Calvinism.

    Let’s look at the Calvinism/Lordship connection. Lordship advocates try to legitimize the Lordship gospel through the presuppositions of Calvinism. The favorites are regeneration before faith and the error of faith is a gift. Both these extra-biblical teachings are thoroughly addressed and refuted by Brother George Zeller. See:

    The Danger of Teaching Regeneration Precedes Faith

    The Danger of Teaching that Faith is the Gift of God

    What we have from the LS apologists is an attempt to justify the false interpretation of the Gospel known as Lordship Salvation through the equally egregious doctrinal errors of Calvinism and the extra-biblical extremes that flow from it.

    Calvinism & Lordship Salvation: Two doctrinal errors combined into one colossal departure from a balanced biblical view of the plan of salvation.

    Make no mistake: Lordship Salvation is a works based, man-centered, non-saving message. Couching the teaching of Lordship Salvation in terms of Reformed theology only worsens the doctrinal confusion and departure from Scripture that Lordship Salvation most certainly is. This is the genuine tragedy of Lordship Salvation!

    May God protect unsuspecting believers from being deceived and falling into the trap of Lordship Salvation.


    LM
     
  2. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. Then said he unto him,

    A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

    17And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.

    18And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.

    19And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

    20And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

    21So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

    22And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

    23And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

    24For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

    25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

    26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

    28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

    29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

    30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

    31Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

    32Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

    33So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

    18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matt 28:18-20

    Lordship Salvation doesn't call men to forsake everything, the LORD of Salvation does. Have you forsook all to follow Jesus Lou? Unless you do, you CANNOT be His disciple.
     
  3. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your gospel with no lord is not working here Lou.


    MacArthur says...

    "Let me say as clearly as possible right now that salvation is by God's sovereign grace and grace alone. Nothing a lost, degenerate, spiritually dead sinner can do will in any way contribute to salvation. Saving faith, repentance, commitment, and obedience are all divine works, wrought by the Holy Spirit in the heart of everyone who is saved. . . . Real salvation cannot and will not fail to produce works of righteousness in the life of a true believer" (p. xiii.)


    Now is a good time to leave your hate Lou.
     
  4. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    Jarth,

    Lou has talked about this, really against this, so much...that I just asked my wife if we have the book by MacArhur. If not, I am buying it..today. lol
     
  5. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is what two others have told me. Lou does not realize he has misrepresented MacArthur so much that it HELPS MacArthur.
     
  6. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Salvation is for those on whom God has bestowed his sovereign grace. They will come to him through the working of the Spirit to embrace the Son for salvation.

    They will find the Son sweet and will want to savoring him for the rest of their lives.

    They will surrender to him as the new Lord of their lives.
     
  7. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wonder, ReformedBaptist, if you or I or anyone else on the BB for that matter, could honestly answer answer "Yes!" to the question you just asked of Lou Martuneac? It would seem that you are suggesting one could not be saved until this happens. Are you married, perchance? If so, what about this Biblical declaration?
    Can only those who are not married, such as Paul, who was apparently not at this time, be saved? Remember, Scripture is saying this, not some theological wannabe, such as EdSutton. By what ReformedBaptist is saying (or at least implying), only one who has forsaken everything can be saved in the first place. Guess Peter (Cephas), not to mention the other apostles, wasn't saved, then, hunh? (I Cor. 9:5-7) I certainly don't believe that Peter was unsaved, and I seriously doubt you do either.

    FTR, Peter was just as saved when Jesus called him Satan, and when he denied the Lord, as well as when the Lord told him to strengthen the brethren when he was converted, not to mention when he "played the hypocrite" at Antioch, as he was when he did his Dwight L. Moody/Billy Graham bit with the 'city-wide crusade' in Jerusalem around Pentecost, some 54-58 days later, when 3000 were saved on the day of Pentecost, and a few days later when 5000 men, not to even mention any women and children, were saved, at one 'meeting', or when he was used of the Holy Spirit to write Scripture. (Mt. 16:13-17:11; Mk. 14:29-31, 66-72; Lk. 22:31-34; Acts 2:14-4:4; Gal. 2:11-18; I Pet. 1:1-2; II Pet. 1:1-4)

    And BTW, Before I Forget! why would Paul even be led by the Holy Spirit to give marriage guidelines for believers, if one could not be a 'disciple' as well as be married, at the same time? (I Cor. 7; et al.)

    FTR, Jesus started in the verses you quoted, and I excerpted from above, by addressing the lawyers and Pharisees, at the house of the ruler, and actualy gave most of this discourse in response to a 'smart-aleck' comment from one of them, who was intending to 'decry' what the Lord was saying, after the rest were silent, when He spoke the Pharisees, the guests, and the host. However, in vs. 25, we see a change of direction where multitudes followed Him, and he then gave the cost of discipleship, not that of salvation. This discourse runs all the way through Lk. 17:10, and includes, among other things, the accounts (not parables, for there is a 'break' in the quoted words of Jesus in Lk. 15:11) of the the Father and the two sons, as well as the account of the rich man and Lazarus.

    I have said many times that I will be found among and with the great saints of Scripture at the Lord's return, many of whom are listed in Heb. 11 in the 'Hall of Fame of Faith', and these dozen or so, such as Noah, Jacob, Rahab, Samson, David, Jonah, Job, Gideon, Thomas, Peter, Paul, and Lot.

    The way I got it figured, that will put me with some I can identify with - a drunken sailor, the greatest swindler in history, a prostitute, a 'womanizer', a murder and adulterer, the greatest bigot in history, the greatest egoist, the biggest coward, the greatest doubter, a Christ-denier, the chief of sinners and the Mayor of Sodom.

    Nice crowd, hunh? But that is the one who I am going to be found with.

    BTW, not one word of Scripture ever says any of the above ever "repented" of anything, save Job, althjough some (but not all) did confess their sins to God, after this.

    I'll let others get on the train with the 'religious crowd' and those that are 'trusting in themselves', based on their 'good deeds', for I don't particularly like their destination! (Mt. 7:21-23; Lk. 18:9-14)

    Ed
     
  8. rdwhite

    rdwhite
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2008
    Messages:
    434
    Likes Received:
    0
    If I may ask, could you please give a Bible reference for each of these statements (I count four): Book, Chapter, and Verse? I would like to look these up and study them.
     
  9. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    0
    TC:

    I needed to make sure unsuspecting readers understood you were speaking of Calvinism's extra-biblical IRRESISTIBLE grace, so I added to word in bold.


    LM
     
  10. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    0
    RB:

    The Lord of All calls on the SAVED to follow Him, to come after Him in discipleship. The lost come TO Him for salvation; the saved come after Him in discipleship.

    Lordship Salvation calls on the lost to a resolve to "forsake everything" to get saved, to become a Christian.

    And, "yes," I am His disciple. I was born again first by grace through faith in Him.


    LM
     
  11. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    I emphasized extra-biblical to make sure unsuspecting readers understood you were speaking as an anti-Calvinist.
     
  12. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ed/All:

    The pattern continues.

    LS apologists will NOT address the specific statement by John MacArthur.

    They talk around it., They flee to the extra-biblical Calvinistic presuppositions. They cry misrepresentation and hatred for the man, but they will NOT deal directly with the obvious implications of MacArthur’s statement. Why the fear of dealing with what he has written?

    Is salvation only for those who are willing to forsake everything? John MacArthur affirms this is the saving message of Lordship Salvation. He wrote, “Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything.” (John MacArthur, The Gospel According to Jesus, p. 78.)

    LS Apologists: Is salvation (only) for those who are willing to forsake everything?


    LM
     
  13. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,404
    Likes Received:
    328
    I don't think you needed to add your gloss Lou. The sentence should read as it did originally without your foisted commentary."Salvation is for those on whom God has bestowed His sovereign grace."
     
  14. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lou, I'm already on record in agreement with you against MacArthur's use of James 4.

    Are you looking for an agreement?
     
  15. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,191
    Likes Received:
    374

    We've all addressed the statements that have been taken out of context. IN context, he is speaking of the Biblical Gospel.

    And you know what I can't stand? A person who is so singularly focused on attacking one man of God that he's no good for anything else. It really gets tiresome.
     
  16. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again you mslead. Your pretty good at this Lou.

    Irresistible grace is salvation, when grace indeed becomes irresistible. Till that time, man will ALWAYS say no to the gospel.

    What's next Lou? :)
     
    #16 Jarthur001, Jul 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2008
  17. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Cool down Lou...you seem a little uptight,

    Your gospel with no Lord, is not making a big hit here.
     
  18. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you, but your statement needs further clarification. Let me assist you with that: I am against the circle logic of five point Calvinism and the extra-biblical extremes that flow from it.

    Thanks,


    LM
     
  19. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear BB Readers:

    Please note the dogged determination of LS apologists to evade dealing with MacArthur’s statement the lost must be willing to forsake everything FOR salvation. The redirects to Calvinism, attempts to make the debate out to be a personality clash continue, and that is a shame. Why won't they deal squarely with what LS is, as defined by JM?

    A “Gospel with no Lord?” That is a Gospel that I am personally unfamiliar with.


    LM
     
  20. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Of course "extra-biblical extremes" because they do not agree with your theology.
     

Share This Page

Loading...