Luke 17 and the Rapture

On the day of Christ's "apocalypse"

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Mel Responds:
You assume that "in HIS day" refers to TODAY; but it is clear that the DAY
(of His Apocalypse; Luke 17:30) refers to His second coming in His glorified body with all the Saints to judge the wicked and redeem (preserve; Luke 17:33)
the Jews a second time. Isa.11:11-15. The Jews will once again become
His People to fulfill Hosea 5:14 to 6:2 "after two days"...after 2000 years. Many of the verses you quote
cannot be fulfilled until Christ's Apocalyptic Presence and the word
of the Lord covers the earth and all men know the Lord is King.
Mel Miller
www.lastday.net

 

That's the view I was taught years ago. Of course it doesn't say they were evangelists. And the tribe of Gad is missing, replaced by Joseph's son Mannasseh (why not Ephraim?). What's up with that?

But it still leaves unanswered how people are saved if the Holy Spirit is no longer around. That's assuming that the work of the Holy Spirit is necessary in the first place. (I think it is). And that's assuming the Holy Spirit is actually gone (pre-tribs think so).

And if one of the attributes of God is omnipresence, how can God the Holy Spirit not be someplace?

 

By the Holy Spirit being removed it is in reference to spirit indwelling, i.e. The church. The gates of hell cannot prevail against the church, and we are told if we resist the devil he will flee from us. This will not be the case when the church age comes to a close.
I believe people will be saved the same way during the GT as they were during the OT considering the fact the purpose is to judge those who rejected Christ AND to restore the jewish people to Himself and their land.

Of course God is omnipresent, but the Bible is clear on His shekinah(sp) glory. Also, if hell is the separation from God you have the same issue with omnipresence.

 

Actually Mel, I presented a sound, solid, scriptural rendering of the above passages. The problem is that the rendering is not sensational enough to suit your taste. It doesn't provide that 'lastday excitement fix' that the typical premil sensationalist must have.

 

Actually the problem is amil is false eschatology, not having anything to do with sensationalism. Roman Catholics claim to present a sound, solid, scriptural rendering of biblical passages to support their doctrine as well.

 

The Luke passage has nothing to do with the rapture. By your understanding there would be no one left if all sinners are destroyed and all saints are raptured. Christ would not have anyone to rule over during His 1000 year rule. No it is not about the rapture.

 

Amen and very well said for a couple of excellent posts Kyredneck!!!!

 

just a quick question here? If you have repented of your sins has he not already appeared to you without sin unto salvation?

The Sacriface of Christ on the cross

When you died in tresspass and sin:

When he forgave you of your sins:

 

On the day of christ's "apocalypse"

Mel's Response to your quoted passages to be fulfilled at Christ's Return:


"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

"For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

"And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

"All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

"Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

"And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

"At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious". Isa 11:9-10

None of these promises can be fulfilled until the "last believer who must be
killed has been killed"! Only then will Christ raise up and gather the Saints together at His return!! Only then will the wicked be destroyed and the word of the Lord literally be known to all who dwell on all the face of earth"!!!

All the above scriptures await the DAY of Christ's literal "APOCALYPSE"...THE DAY THAT YOU ASSUME CONTINUES DAILY IN THIS PRESENT AGE.
Luke 17:30.
Mel Miller
www.lastday.net

 

27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them:
24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17

 

All of matt. 24 fulfilled first

Kyredneck,
What are you trying to prove in the following scriptures?

My Belief:
This Generation will not pass away until ALL these things are fulfilled!
That includes the gathering of all the Saints after the Great Tribulation!!
It includes His coming with "all the saints" when even those who pierced
Him will "behold Him as well as beholding other Saints coming with Him"!!!

Those who see the "pierced" Savior include the Saints coming with Him
and one of those Saints could be Caiaphas himself...but only God knows.
Mel Miller
www.lastday.net

 

Your views are carnal, similar to the Jews of Christ's day. You're looking for a kingdom that can't be seen with the natural eye or touched with the mortal hand.

 

:applause::applause::applause:

The Kingdom does not come with observation.

(Luk 17:20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

(Luk 17:21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(Joh 18:36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

To deny the physical return of Christ is anathema.

Count me in with the "carnal" group as Job, David, Paul and Jesus held to it.

 

Define which Kingdom you refer to, The Kingdom of God, The Kingdom of Heaven or the Milenial (Messianic) Kingdom.
So of which do you refer as being not visible? The Jews expected and still do the Messianic Kingdom, the one Described by John in Revelation with Christ ruling on Davids throne in Jerusalem and this literally as prophesied by Isaiah, Ezekial, Zechariah and even David himself in the Psalms.

 

This is not the Messianic (Milienial) Kingdom. The Messianic Kingdom as expected by the Jews and as seen by Jouhn in Revelation 20, prophisied by Isaiah, Ezekial, Zechariah and David.

Again we see in scripture the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven and the Messianic Kingdom. These are all refered to in scripture. Some say the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are one in the same but almost all agree the Messianic (Millenial) Kingdom is different from the other two.

 

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1683957#post1683957

I don't have a [complex] Dispensational breakdown or chart of [complex] Dispensational terms (nor do I desire to delve into that mess). I generally agree with Edersheim's take on it.

 

You said the Kingdom is invisible and yet scripture is clear there are different Kingdoms. So which Kingdom were you refering?
From scripture I sure you can find them.

 

Briefly, concisely, if you're able, show me kingdomS from scripture.

There's only ONE 'reign of heaven' or 'reign of God', or 'reign of Christ'; they're all the same and the terms are used interchangedbly.

Consult your Dispy manual/chart/diagram and give me a lesson on the difference between them all. Show how the Dispys make the simple complex.

 

You Dispys place a whooooole lot of stock in the Olivet Discourse. From that discourse you derive such things as THE GREAT TRIBULATION and THE RAPTURE and famines and wars and earthquakes and pestilence, and most important of all THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN (among other things); these all of course are yet to happen according to your Dispy manual.

But there's this nagging, troublesome phrase that's included in all three of the synoptic accounts:

"This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished."

What does your Dispy manual/chart/diagram instruct you to do with this pesky lil' statement?