Luke 2:10, 11

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by jerry wayne, Dec 17, 2002.

  1. jerry wayne

    jerry wayne
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    Luke 2:10, 11: Then the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord." (NKJV)

    How is this interpreted by Calvinists? Do they assume that the shepherds were among the elect?
     
  2. russell55

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    Can you explain a little more? Why do you think that a Calvinist might think the shepherds were elect based on this verse?
     
  3. jerry wayne

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    I probably did not word my question very well. The passage says that it was good tidings to "all people" and to "you" is born a savior. Do "all people" and "you" mean only the elect? If so, it was not good tidings to everyone on earth and the shepherds (the "you") must have been among the elect. I hope that this makes it clearer.
     
  4. russell55

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    Well, since Calvinists believe the good news of the gospel goes out to all men indiscriminately, Christ's incarnation is indeed good tidings to all people. And many Calvinists also believe that since Christ is the only means of salvation, that there is a sense in which Christ is the Saviour of all men, even though He is especially (in a more full and complete way) the Saviour of the elect. So taking the passage the way you do does not make it conflict with Calvinism.

    But I really think that in this particular context, and considering the fact that the original text didn't read "all people", but "all the people" (in other words, the nation Israel), that this is speaking specifically of the Jews, and it was good news to the Jewish people that their Messiah (the Christ) was born to them.
     
  5. jerry wayne

    jerry wayne
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    To Russell55:
    What leads you to believe that "all the people" means the Jews only?
     
  6. jerry wayne

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    To Russell55:
    How can Christ "in a sense" be the Savior for the non-elect? Wouldn't you say that He either is the Savior or He is not? How can there be any middle ground?
     
  7. Primitive Baptist

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    "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people." (Luke 2:10)

    This is a prime example of the Calvinistic view of the word "all" as it is often used in the Scriptures. The Gospel is certainly not good news to all people without exception, for when the wise men brought the news of the birth of Jesus to Herod, "...he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him." (Matthew 2:3) The Gospel, however, is good news to all people indiscriminantly, both Jews and Gentiles. The message of the angel was that God was about to begin a work among the Gentiles, as opposed to His almost exclusive dealings with the nation of Israel. Paul wrote, "Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ." (2 Corinthians 2:14-17) God is glorified whether the preaching of the Gospel is received or rejected. To some, the Gospel is a proclamation of their redemption. To others, it is a proclamation of their just condemnation.

    [ December 17, 2002, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
     
  8. russell55

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    Well, "the people" is a term the Isrealites used to describe themselves. And the particular message of the angels to the shepherds in concerning the Messiah that the Jews were looking forward to.

    This doesn't mean that I think Jesus came only for the Jews, just that it is particularly his role as Jewish Messiah that is being refered to here.

    Well, Christ's death has a reference to men that it does not have to angel, for instance. There is a means for men to be saved if they believe, but no means for angels to be saved. In addition,Christ's death affords a temporary reprieve from judgment for all of mankind. Every single person owes their earthly life to the work God is doing in the world to redeem a people for himself.

    But those who are in Christ (the elect) are identified with His death in a way that actually saves them eternally.
     
  9. Primitive Baptist

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    God is the Savior of all men in a sense, "...for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45) In regards to the elect, He is "specially" a Savior (I Timothy 4:10). That is, He is their Savior in a particular and eternal sense. Nothing could be sustained without God upholding everything, and the peace that Jesus Christ made through the blood of the cross included the creation as a whole (Colossians 1:20). One day, the creation itself will benefit from the blood of Christ because it will be ultimately delivered from the curse of sin (Romans 8:20-22).
     

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