Luke 22:36 Does Not Endorse Killing

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by plain_n_simple, Jun 26, 2015.

  1. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    This article says it better than I can, that Jesus did not tell you to buy a gun to protect yourself or your family. He wants you to trust Him to protect you "Not by power or by might, but by My Spirit"

    "Perhaps one of the most abused passages in all of scripture these days is Luke 22:36. The issue comes up often, and is a predictable comment that ends up in any thread where I discuss nonviolent enemy love… “But didn’t Jesus command that his disciples carry swords?”

    To arrive at the position that Jesus endorses violence as a result of Luke 22:36 is almost as bad as saying that Jesus endorses adultery because of John 8:11. In the famous story found in John 8, Jesus is confronted with a pending execution and completely disrupts it– setting free the woman condemned to be executed for adultery. As Jesus sends her on her way, he says “where are your accusers?” to which she answers that they had all left. Jesus issued the well know reply: “neither do I condemn you.”

    Now, what if I argued that Jesus thinks it’s okay to commit adultery based on this passage? I hope you’d know the story well enough (or go read the actual context) and realized that such an argument would not be quoting the entirety of Jesus’ statement. The final thing Jesus says to her is “go, but don’t do it again”, but if one were to leave off this final statement, it may appear that Jesus endorsed adultery.

    While Bible believing gundamentalists would quickly rebuke me for such an abuse of the John 8 passage (and rightly so) they’re very quick to employ this same method of only quoting half of a passage when it comes to justifying the ownership of weapons designed to kill people.

    In this case, they quote Luke 22:26 (which records Jesus’ last words before leaving the last supper and heading out to where he would be arrested). The verse in total isolation certainly makes it appear that Jesus was a hypocrite by contradicting his previous teachings on nonviolence by telling his disciples to go out and buy swords if they didn’t already have one. And, if that’s all that Jesus said in that passage, they’d have a good case. While it wouldn’t be a slam dunk on the Jesus and violence issue since he clearly stated in Matthew 5 that the children of God are nonviolent, it would show that Jesus was inconsistent on the issue and cast his entire teachings into doubt (ironic that if gundamentalists are right, Jesus can’t be trusted). However, the crucial flaw in the Luke 22:36 argument is the inconvenient existence of Luke 22:37, where Jesus goes onto explain why they needed to bring swords to his arrest. Jesus explains, as one will see plainly in the text, that there was an Old Testament prophesy stating the Messiah would be “counted among the lawless”, and that he wanted to make sure this prophesy came to pass– thus why they needed to carry swords.

    (Side note: the Bible didn’t originally have chapters and verses, this is a modern addition. While certainly helpful, it does promote the mistake of lifting a “verse” out of the complete passage.)

    What I love about the Luke passage is that it’s one of the few passages that explains itself. Often one needs to go searching and considering all sorts of issues to understand the meaning of a passage, but it seems in this instant Jesus didn’t want to leave it open for misinterpretation, so he interprets what he meant right on the spot: he needed to fulfill the prophesy that he’d be arrested like a common criminal.

    Furthermore, there are a few additional facts that really make this a poor proof text to support the idea that Jesus endorsed using violence against other people:

    Jesus says two are “enough”, even though there were 13 of them. Clearly, if these swords were for self defense, two would not be enough at all.

    There is also an alternate understanding of Jesus’ use of the word “enough” when his disciples say “hey look, we’ve already got a couple here“. Some scholars have argued that Jesus wasn’t saying “enough” as in, “two will be plenty”, but rather said “enough!” in disgust and exasperation as he saw them start to get the wrong idea about actually using the swords. While we don’t know for sure from the text, if we had a biblical version of the show Myth Busters, I would certainly place the latter understanding in the realm of “plausible”. Jesus did previously use language in exasperation on a few occasions such when he responded to his disciples with the line, “are you still so dull??” or told Philip “how is it that you’ve spent all this time with me and still don’t know me?” so I’m not opposed to the idea that Jesus was frustrated with them for actually thinking he was promoting the use of violence. However, either option of understanding “enough” still places one in the category that Jesus was not endorsing the use of violence.

    Now, the ultimate proof that Jesus wasn’t promoting violence in self defense is what we see happen just an hour or two later: Peter actually uses one of the swords to cut someone’s ear off, and Jesus not only rebukes Peter for doing that, (“Put away your sword! Whoever lives by the sword will die by it”), but Jesus goes one step further in healing the ear of one of his own enemies who had come to arrest him.

    The verdict is in: there is absolutely, positively no possible way to use Luke 22:36 to support the use of violence unless you also contend that Luke 22:36 is the last verse in the book of Luke. This passage neither commands “sword ownership” nor endorses the use of violence. One need not take my word for it– just read the entire passage, because Jesus tells us exactly what he meant both through words (explaining the prophesy) and behavior (correcting them when they misunderstood it to endorse violence). It’s actually one of the easier biblical passages to understand.

    If the isolated understanding of Luke 22:36 were true, Jesus would be a horrible hypocrite who couldn’t be trusted– but thankfully, that’s not the case."
    -Benjamin L Corey

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/no-jesus-didnt-command-we-own-weapons/
     
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,332
    Likes Received:
    786
    That is a clear misuse of scripture.
     
  3. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    The following text was originally published by someone on a site called Harmless as Doves, no longer online.

    Luke 22:35-38: Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered. He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. For it is written: ‘he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied.

    First we must ask, why did Jesus want them to buy swords? It seems unlikely that Jesus’ instructions were intended to prepare his disciples for armed conflict and self defense, because two swords does not seem to be “enough,” as Jesus put it, to defend twelve men. In fact, in the passage itself Jesus explained the purpose for the swords. Jesus instructed his disciples to buy the swords, “for it is written: ‘he was numbered with the transgressors.’”

    Here, Jesus referenced Isaiah 53:12, which contains one of the many Old Testament prophesies concerning the life of the Messiah. Jesus wanted the swords present when he was arrested, because the presence of the swords would indicate to those arresting him that he was one of the “transgressors,” that he was leading a violent rebellion. Jesus again referenced this while he was being arrested:

    Matthew 26:55-56: At that time Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.”

    In this passage, Jesus acknowledged that all this was taking place so “that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.”

    The disciples did not understand this, and as Jesus was being arrested, Peter attempted to defend him by reaching for one of the swords, and striking the servant of the High Priest, cutting off his ear. Jesus miraculously healed the wound, and then rebuked Peter:

    Matthew 26:52-53: “Put your sword back in its place… for all who take the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will provide me with more than twelve legions of angels?”

    Peter’s actions could certainly be considered a just use of defensive violence. Jesus, an innocent man, was about to be given into the hands of an angry mob. Using one of the swords Jesus told him to buy, Peter attempted to rescue his friend. Jesus, however, rebuked Peter and rebuked this use of defensive violence. Later at his trial before Pilate, Jesus made a comment which explained his condemnation of Peter’s actions:

    John 18:36: My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight…
    If Jesus’ kingdom were of this world, his servants could use defensive violence when attacked. However, Jesus’ kingdom is not of this world.

    Many argue that Jesus had to die on the cross, and this is why his disciples could not defend him. It must be noted, however, that the reason Jesus gave for not fighting was not that he had to die on the cross, but that his kingdom was not of this world. In contrast to the kingdoms of the world, Jesus’ servants do not fight; His kingdom is built around love and the love of enemies. Jesus specifically forbade Peter from using the sword, but his wording was universal:

    Matthew 26:52: “Put your sword back in its place… for all who take the sword will die by the sword.”

    This same denunciation of “the sword” is found in the book of Revelation, specifically applied to all followers of Christ:

    Revelation 13:9-10: He who has an ear, let him hear… He who kills with the sword will be killed with the sword. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

    In this passage, the same comment Jesus made prohibiting the defense of himself is explicitly applied to all “who has an ear.” Indeed, refraining from using violent self-defense against an approaching enemy does require “patient endurance and faithfulness.”

    Jesus’ followers appear to have gotten the message, because although Jesus told them to buy swords in Luke 22, we never again read of the disciples carrying swords or physically defending themselves. Acts 8:1 tells us that a “great persecution broke out against the church.” Throughout the rest of the book of Acts, and the rest of the New Testament in general, we read of Christians facing persecution from mobs, religious authorities, and governmental authorities. Most of the Apostles met a martyr’s death, but instead of using defensive violence, they showed love towards their enemies.

    Acts 7:60: …“Lord, do not hold this sin against them!”…

    Although faced with great persecution, the Apostles followed the lead of Jesus and Stephen, facing their enemies with love while rejecting the sword. Here are the Apostles in their own words:

    Romans 12:14: Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

    Romans 12:17-21: Do not repay anyone evil for evil… live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink…” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

    1 Thessalonians 5:9: God did not appoint us to wrath…

    1 Thessalonians 5:15: Make sure that no one back evil for evil, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all.

    James 1:20: The wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

    1 Peter 3:9-11: Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing …turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.
    Amen :jesus: :thumbsup: :godisgood:
     
  4. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    Then when you point you gun for protection instead of believing Jesus has a hedge built around you, you must look at another human and say "In Jesus name I condemn you to death". Then squeeze the trigger and thank God He allowed you Marine, to take vengeance and repay evil with evil.

    Colossians 3

    17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
     
  5. Alcott

    Alcott
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    7,456
    Likes Received:
    93
    Do you trust Jesus or the locks on the doors of your house?
    Do you trust Jesus or the seatbelts in your vehicle? Or its brakes?
    Do you trust Jesus or your insurance?
    Do you trust Jesus or your savings and income?
    Do you trust Jesus or your doctor?
    Do you trust Jesus or your fire department?
     
  6. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    Jesus is my stronghold, I trust Him to stop robbers and thieves
    Jesus is there if my brakes fail
    Jesus has built a hedge around me and my family, and to the next generation
    Jesus supplies, seek His righteousness and ALL things are added
    Jesus saves...Sozo: healed..delivered..set free!
    Jesus will stop any fire, He has built a hedge around me

    Now address the scriptures and put off your vain imaginations
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,332
    Likes Received:
    786
    You did not answer the question. Do you lock your doors and windows ever?
     
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,332
    Likes Received:
    786
    But this has nothing to do with your misuse of scripture.
     
  9. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    No I do not Rev, I don't think about it much.
     
  10. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    And you have not address the scripture, only quacked
     
  11. Rolfe

    Rolfe
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2014
    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    394
    "This article says it better than I can,..." -Plain and Simple.
     
  12. Alcott

    Alcott
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    7,456
    Likes Received:
    93
    Have you ever been robbed?

    Have you ever had a wreck? ever gone past a stop sign?

    Do you carry insurance of any kind?

    You never worked or invested? just sat back and trusted Jesus, and "all things" came your way?

    Have you ever had a cold? a virus? an ingrown toenail?

    He will stop any fire? I wonder why the burners on my stove don't go out after I turn them on.

    Now about that time Herod the king laid hands on some who belonged to the church in order to mistreat them.And he had James the brother of John put to death with a sword [Acts 12:1-2].

    So He does not protect the apostles from molestation and death, but He will protect you from thieves, fires, illness,... ? Okay.
     
  13. Rolfe

    Rolfe
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2014
    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    394
    Plain and Simple- Why do armed Christian Police Officers not violate Scripture or show the same lack of faith that you claim armed citizens do? You do not seem to want to answer each time I ask you this.
     
    #13 Rolfe, Jun 27, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2015
  14. Rolfe

    Rolfe
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2014
    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    394
    Yep. I am no theologian, and even I can see that.
     
  15. matt wade

    matt wade
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    76
    Please post the password for your Baptist Board account in this thread. Jesus will protect it from being logged into by anyone meaning to cause harm.
     
  16. Rolfe

    Rolfe
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2014
    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    394
    :laugh::laugh::laugh:

    I wish I would have thought to suggest that.
     
  17. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2002
    Messages:
    5,505
    Likes Received:
    40
    A classic example, if you will, of one who is SO heavenly minded that he is of NO earthly good!

    I remember when I was a kid, 7-8 YO or so, I actually argued that if it were not God's will for me to die, you could stab me in the heart and it would have no effect.
    I truly had no concept at that time of God's ordained will vs His permissive will.
     
  18. Rolfe

    Rolfe
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2014
    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    394
    Bump. P-N-S, are you able to answer?
     
  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,332
    Likes Received:
    786
    Yest another misuse of scripture and a poor use of logic to boot. Further, are you suggesting that the pastor and 8 other Christians who were just killed by a gunman did not have that hedge of protection around them? Why not?


    Also, there is a distinct difference between revenge and self defense. Trying to equate self defense with revenge means you have no legitimate argument and you know it. This often happens when one make an attempt to defend the indefensible.
     
  20. matt wade

    matt wade
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    76
    Still waiting for that password...
     

Share This Page

Loading...