Luke 22:44

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by robycop3, Sep 19, 2005.

  1. robycop3

    robycop3
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    Did JESUS actually sweat blood? There has been more than one commentary written trying to rationalize this, but it-and they-are wrong.

    Here's the verse, as found in the KJV:

    "And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground."

    Note that it says"his sweat WAS AS IF..."

    Now, what does the GREEK say?

    'hidros'= sweat
    'ginomai'= became, came into being, was(state of being)
    'hosei'= like as, as, as if, resembling

    As a steelworker, I've sweatted so profusely that it dripped off my chin and nose at a rate of about 2 drops a second. Same for when I played football and boxed. Also, even a minor head wound above the eyebrows bleeds quite profusely for a few minutes, and, mixed with sweat, appears to be a torrent.

    Plainly, Scripture is saying Jesus SWEATTED so profusely that it ran like blood. And He had a BEARD, which multiplied the effect!
     
  2. Artimaeus

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    I'm OK with that.
     
  3. webdog

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    “Many have undertaken to draw an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who, from the first, were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may also know the certainty of the things you have been taught." (Luke 1:1-4)

    Luke intended to picture an accurate accout. When he said Jesus sweat blood, He literaly sweat blood.

    There is a very rare phenomenon, a medical condition, in which an individual can, indeed, sweat blood. It is called hematidrosis, and it is associated with a high degree of psychological stress. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematidrosis

    “What happens is that severe anxiety causes the release of chemicals that break down the capillaries in the sweat glands. As a result, there’s a small amount of bleeding into these sweat glands, and the sweat comes out tinged with blood.”(2)

    So why was Luke the only one to record this aspect of Christ’s suffering? The answer is not known. Clearly, no single account of Christ’s life, as detailed by the Gospel record, is intended to be exhaustive. Each of the gospels appears to focus on different aspects of Jesus’ life. Quite possibly, it is because of Luke’s interest as a physician in this rare physiological phenomenon, that he is the only one to record this aspect of Christ’s suffering.

    In any event, the discovery of this medical condition authenticates the Gethsemane account recorded by Luke. Once again, the Bible is revealed as authentic. Its science is revealed as accurate—and far in advance of its times. But it does far more: It speaks most dramatically of the intense spiritual agony Jesus was suffering as He faced the terrible trauma of death on the cross—of being made sin for the world.

    Notes:
    1) Henry M. Morris, THE DEFENDER’S STUDY BIBLE, p. 1533 (1995).
    2) Lee Strobel, THE CASE FOR CHRIST, THE MEDICAL EVIDENCE, p. 195 (1998
     
  4. webdog

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    You misquoted yourself! You say the verse says "as it were" and then you say "note that it says was as if".

    As it were great drops of blood does not mean there has to be great amounts of blood. You ever watch pro wrestling? One tiny intentional cut on the forehead can make it look like the person is bleeding to death.

    This is not what scripture "plainly" says. It says He sweated blood. To deny this is to deny the inerrancy of Luke's gospel.
     
  5. Johnv

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    I'm okay with everything except this phrase.

    We don't know if Jesus actually had a bear or not. It is very likely that Jesus did, because long (in comparison to us) hair and a beard were the common custom of men in Jesus' day.

    So, while it is very likely he had a beard, we do not know for sure.
     
  6. Artimaeus

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    Luke's intentions are unknown to us. All we know is that what he wrote is NOT that Jesus sweat blood but that Jesus sweat something LIKE great drops of blood.

    Luk 22:44

    (ALT) And having been in agony, He was [even] more fervently praying. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling on the ground.

    (ASV) And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became as it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.

    (Darby) And being in conflict he prayed more intently. And his sweat became as great drops of blood, falling down upon the earth.

    (EMTV) And being in agony, He prayed more fervently. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down onto the ground.

    (ESV) And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

    (GNB) In great anguish he prayed even more fervently; his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

    (HCSB) Being in anguish, He prayed more fervently, and His sweat became like drops of blood falling to the ground.]

    (ISV) In his anguish he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat became like large drops of blood falling on the ground.

    (KJV+) And2532 being1096 in1722 an agony74 he prayed4336 more earnestly:1617 and1161 his846 sweat2402 was1096 as it were5616 great drops2361 of blood129 falling down2597 to1909 the3588 ground.1093

    (KJV-1611) And being in an agonie, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling downe to the ground.

    (KJVA) And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

    (LITV) And being in an agony, He prayed more intently. And His sweat became as drops of blood falling down onto the earth.

    (Webster) And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling to the ground.

    (YLT) and having been in agony, he was more earnestly praying, and his sweat became, as it were, great drops of blood falling upon the ground.

    (NASB) And being in agony He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.

    (Amp NT) And being in an agony [of mind], He prayed [all the] more earnestly and intently, and His sweat became like great clots of blood dropping down upon the ground.
     
  7. webdog

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    They are?!? Did you fail to read Luke 1:1-4?

    “Many have undertaken to draw an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who, from the first, were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may also know the certainty of the things you have been taught."

    His intentions sound pretty clear to me! You seem to imply from the different translations that the medical act of Hematidrosis is false. The burden of proof rests on you to disprove science and medicine using the above translations.
     
  8. Johnv

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    Godo point, webdog. We have a reasonable understanding of Luke's intention. That is further expounded upon by the fact that Luke was a physician, writing to another physician, in a private and personal letter. Therefore, Luke takes more detail in his accounts of things that will be of interest to a person of a medical background (thus, the details of the blood/sweat account). Notice how Luke writes about Jesus' healings in a way that a physician of the day would find interesting.
     
  9. rjprince

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    Many commentators understand the words of Isa 50:6 as being prophetic of Jesus' treatment at the hands of the Jews and the Romans. Isaiah says, "I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting." The wording of the LXX (Septuagint) has the same root as the wording of the gospels – eis rapismata – Mark 14:65; John 18:22; 19:3.

    While the Gospels do not specifically mention the plucking out of Jesus's beard, based on this passage it is generally assumed. Remember, there are many things that Jesus said and did that are not recorded (John 21:25).

    And, BTW, I also hold to the idea of "bloody sweat". This is something that a physician like Luke would have noticed and mentioned.
     
  10. Craigbythesea

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    Robycop3 is unquestionably correct here. The Greek text does NOT say that Jesus sweated blood, it says that “His sweat became like drops of blood.” There is not the slightest hint in the Greek text that Luke was, in a clumsy and feeble way, attempting to describe an instance of hematidrosis. Indeed, Luke’s Greek is exceptionally good and we can very confidently say that he meant what he wrote and that he wrote what he meant, “His sweat became like drops of blood.”

    We should note here, however, that vv. 43-44 are a highly questionable text because these verses are not found in many ancient manuscripts of Luke’s gospel and may, therefore, be an early scribal gloss. If that is the case, the author, of course, was not Luke at all.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Craigbythesea

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    rjprince wrote,

    Yes, Luke would have noticed it, but he did not mention it, and he did describe something else. He described what actually occurred, “His sweat became like drops of blood.”

    See: Joseph A Fitzmyer, The Gospel According to Luke (X-XXIV), pp. 1443-1444. 1985.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. robycop3

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    Webdog: This is not what scripture "plainly" says. It says He sweated blood. To deny this is to deny the inerrancy of Luke's gospel.

    No, it isn't...it's to deny your INTERPRETATION of Luke. Please check out the GREEK.
     
  13. robycop3

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    I'm okay with everything except this phrase.

    We don't know if Jesus actually had a bear or not. It is very likely that Jesus did, because long (in comparison to us) hair and a beard were the common custom of men in Jesus' day.

    So, while it is very likely he had a beard, we do not know for sure.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Isaiah 50:6, NKJV... "I gave My back to those who struck Me,
    And My cheeks to those who plucked out the beard;
    I did not hide My face from shame and spitting."
     
  14. robycop3

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    Webdog: His intentions sound pretty clear to me! You seem to imply from the different translations that the medical act of Hematidrosis is false. The burden of proof rests on you to disprove science and medicine using the above translations.

    Verily, verily, the burden rests upon YOU to prove the Greek and the several English translations did not say what they say. The question is NOT whether hemitadrosis exists or not; it's whether or not it occurred with Jesus during His prayer. According to Scripture, it was SWEAT.
     
  15. webdog

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    What does the phrase "sweat became like drops of blood" mean? Why did he not say "sweat became like drops of rain"? How is a drop of blood that much different than a drop of sweat? You guys's overanalyze to the point that common sense is no longer. If you sweat and it becomes "like" drops of blood, it MUST look and bear similar characteristics of blood! That coupled with what hematidrosis is, and how it occurs, and Luke being a physician, PERFECTLY fits the text! I am reading it at face value. CBTS, and robycop YOU are eisegeting the text. The burden of proof rests on how a drop of sweat can become LIKE a drop of blood...with the total absence of blood!
     
  16. Artimaeus

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    They are?!? Did you fail to read Luke 1:1-4?</font>[/QUOTE]I was talking about his specific intentions in the specific verse being discussed.

    No, I am denying that the medical act of Hematidrosis is specifically stated to be occuring here. Whether it did or did not occur is irrelevant. What I am saying is that the verse in question does not state that this is the case.

    The above translations prove that it is NOT saying that Hematidrosis occured. It is also NOT saying that it did not occur. It is not commenting on Hematidrosis at all. It describes what it describes and if that is similar to Hematidrosis then fine, but you cannot say that that is what it IS saying when it doesn't. Being LIKE something isn't BEING something.
     
  17. webdog

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    And I'm saying based on Luke's eyewitness and what hematidrosis is, this is what most likely happened.
    I disagree. If Luke said it happened, and he was there, it is relevant.
    And it doesn't say hematidrosis didn't occur. It most certainly did not say what you agreed with in the OP, that Jesus possibly had a head wound...or He sweat profusely {two drops per second) because it was hot, like when playing sports and working really hard.
    Being LIKE something does not disclude it from being something, either. I never claimed for a fact that this happened. I wasn't there. Based on a physician's eyewitness of an unusual event, and knowing what I do about the symptoms of hematidrosis, it is PROBABLE this occured moreso than Jesus being really hot with a beard. That would not be something a physician would have been particularly fascinated by.

    [ September 20, 2005, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: webdog ]
     
  18. Paul of Eugene

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    As long as we're on this topic one should be aware that not every greek manuscript has the verse 44 with the reference to sweating great drops of blood. It was left out of the original of Codex Sinaiticus, but later added in its margin. It was left out of Codex Vaticanus. There are others that also omit it, but it was included in the family of manuscripts that made it to the so called "textus receptus". The Critical text prepared by the American Bible Society by Kurt Aland et al omits the verse, giving the verse a probability rating of only C (but my edition is dated 1966!)
     
  19. robycop3

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    Webdog: And I'm saying based on Luke's eyewitness and what hematidrosis is, this is what most likely happened.

    Not really, based upon the Greek. Luke was telling us that Jesus, knowing what was soon gonna happen to Him, was in spiritual agony, which caused Him to sweat profusely...and Luke was emphasizing its profuseness by a common metaphor any reader should know.

    I disagree. If Luke said it happened, and he was there, it is relevant.

    No one disagrees that something happened. The disagreement is about what EXACTLY happened.

    And it doesn't say hematidrosis didn't occur. It most certainly did not say what you agreed with in the OP, that Jesus possibly had a head wound...or He sweat profusely {two drops per second) because it was hot, like when playing sports and working really hard.

    I believe we all know that great mental pressure can cause one to sweat profusely.

    Being LIKE something does not disclude it from being something, either. I never claimed for a fact that this happened. I wasn't there. Based on a physician's eyewitness of an unusual event, and knowing what I do about the symptoms of hematidrosis, it is PROBABLE this occured moreso than Jesus being really hot with a beard. That would not be something a physician would have been particularly fascinated by.

    I believe it happened because Jesus was in intense mental agony, knowing exactly what was about to befall Him. It was evening, and prolly slightly cool. Luke noted His profuse sweating to tell us something of Jesus' state of mind at the time. Stretch the Greek all you want; it still does NOT say He sweatted blood. I don't think He did, the men who arrested Him said nothing about blood upon His person nor on His clothes, nor did any of His interrogators before He was beaten.
     
  20. webdog

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    Hematidrosis (also called hematohidrosis) is a very rare condition in which a human being sweats blood. It may occur when person is suffering extreme levels of stress, for example, facing his or her own death.

    Some have suggested Jesus experienced hematidrosis when he was praying in the garden of Gethsemane and knew he would soon die.

    Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematidrosis"

    With the above definition, and the condition being "rare", was Jesus under the same kind of stress we go through? Was Jesus under the same stress a death row inmate, or a hostage facing execution? Jesus was about to take EVERY sin EVER committed upon His shoulders, and pay the price for EVERY man who EVER lived! He was willingly laying His life down for us, becoming sin! I believe the stress involoved would be a thousand times worse than anything we could ever face. This is why I believe this "rare" instance of hemtidrosis occurred.
     

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