Luther and Calvin

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by John Gilmore, Jul 23, 2004.

  1. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore
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    It was inevitable that Lutherans and Calvinists would split over the Sacraments and over the two natures of Christ. Luther would have no fellowship with anyone who did not acknowledge that the humanity and divinity of Christ was present in, with, and under the bread and wine. However, I don't think Luther really wanted Predestination to be a cause for separation because he avoided taking sides in presdestination disputes.

    After his death, Calvinist views became widely circulated among Lutherans. The Concordists (writers of the Formula of Concord) strongly refuted the Calvinist positions on limited atonement and double predestination as well as Calvinist sacramental views. The German churches that would not subscribe to the Formula joined the Reform church.

    Calvinists often say that the Lutheran Church deserted Luther's doctrine of predestination; whereas, Lutherans generally say that the Formula affirms Luther's position.
     
  2. Stratiotes

    Stratiotes
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    I thought _Bondage of the Will_ made Luther's position pretty clear.
     
  3. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore
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    Yes, the irony is that both Lutherans and Calvinists agree with the predestination of "Bondage of the Will". Most Lutherans consider it to be one of their personal confessions even though "Bondage of the Will" is not included in the Book of Concord except by reference. Five point Calvinists accept the entire book except for Section 77: What happened in our own times to those new prophets concerning the words of Christ, "This is my body?" One invented a trope in the word "this," another in the word "is," another in the word "body." I have therefore observed this:—that all heresies and errors in the Scriptures, have not arisen from the simplicity of the words, as is the general report throughout the world, but from men not attending to the simplicity of the words, and hatching tropes and conclusions out of their own brain.
     
  4. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore
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    nepreteley posted on another thread, "the Lutheran church doesn't seem to follow them [Luther's soteriology]anymore, as far as I can tell." He explains that he obtained this information from a Lutheran pastor.

    Most all Lutherans agree that Luther taught unlimited atonement and single predestination. However, there is a new soteriology view in vogue in certain American Lutheran churches. It goes beyond unlimited atonement to teach universal justification. This "Objective Justification" becomes beneficial when sinner believes: "Subjective Justification". Some Lutheran pastors believe this teaching is contrary to both Luther's views and the Formula of Concord.
     
  5. Stratiotes

    Stratiotes
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    I'm afraid I don't know a lot of Lutherans and those I do know are not interested in theology to the point of wanting to discuss this issue. But, they do tell me that the Missouri Synod is the most "conservative" in their theology. I've always wondered if they are trying to say it is the most in line with Luther's understanding or what. The Lutherans I do know who, I would say have a saving knowledge of the gospel, are Missouri synod Lutherans. But, like I said, I don't know that many. I'd be interested to hear what you think on the subject of the different "flavors" of Lutherans.
     
  6. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore
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    All Lutherans have basically the same soteriology (i.e., divine monergism) because the Book of Concord is quite detailed and explicit. I do not consider "Objective Justification" to be sign of liberalism in a synod just a slightly different view than that of traditional Lutheranism. Lutherans who teach OJ and those who do not say they are following Luther and the Book of Concord.

    The Missouri Synod, LCMS, is not all that conservative but not because it teaches "Objective Justification". The conservative synods are the Wisconsin Evangelican Lutheran Synod and the Evangelical Lutheran Synod (which also teach OJ). The liberal synod is the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA).

    The ELCA is completely apostate. They condone abortion, pray with pagans, allow laypeople(women) to preach and administer the sacraments, deny the inerrancy of scripture, commune non-Lutherans, and have signed a false confession on justification with the Anti-Christ. All of these practices are condemned in the Book of Concord.

    The LCMS officially subscribes unconditionally to the Book of Concord but is moving toward the anti-confessional practices of the ELCA as described above. The recent LCMS convention split 53% liberal, 47% conservative.
     

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