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Maccabees possible new topic for Mel Gibson film

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Greg Linscott, Mar 19, 2004.

  1. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    Phillip:

    Oh my goodness, my socks are still on because I got tired after the first 50 paragraphs.

    S&T:

    The Truth is tiring to some as well [​IMG]
     
  2. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    originally quoted by donna:
    what are you talking about? we can't have a church willing to teach the Bible...no way...get out of there fast...go to your nearest theatre...how do you think the world will see Christ coming in the clouds except through the 'big picture' screen?

    OH, that's it. I thought it was because people have a natural desire for mysticism and ritual...go figure :rolleyes:

    Anything but truth, give me anything but truth, that old Bible stuff, why you can give just one scripture to 50 Baptist preachers and they each will get a different interpretation of it.

    Maybe we ought to collect everyone's Bible...begin to speak to them through visions and foaming mouths, speak of paganistic heathen worship of the queen of heaven and tell them they can come to God through Christ, but the way to Christ can only be by: take your pick

    </font>
    • Mysticism</font>
    • Ritual</font>
    • Traditionalism</font>
    • ESP</font>
    • Fill in the Blank---by this time, anything you say, hey, now is a great time to try to teach the truth, after all the other stuff has 'brought' them to Christ, now let's convince them of the true Christ of God</font>
    Ok.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  3. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    The line in question is heard in Aramaic, but it's heard in the crowd, along with several other things said. The reason Mel cut the line from the subtitles is because it emphasizes that one line, and gives no credence to the other things said. Indeed, when hearing it in Aramaic, it doesn't really stand out (again, my aramaic is pretty poor). Mel explained that he would have preferred to expand that scene to put that line in the full context in which it was delivered, but since the subtitles are done post prodution (after principal photography is completed), one's editing choices are limited.
     
  4. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Hey, the Holy Spirit has had the same problem ;)

    Ever since putting that anti-Semitic phrase in Matthew, look at the reaction of all the sinless gentile nations.

    Bro. Dallas

    I can hear it now---The Holy Spirit is dictating to Matthew, comes off with that line, drawn out of the rioting crowd, for dramatic effect of course, and then gives it a second thought (having looked down into the future and all the resultant anti-Semitism) and then says, oh, scratch that last remark...Matthew looks up from his desk where he is diligently looking from his Greek to Aramaic dictionary and says, nope, can't do that, already translated and written it...it's there buddy...or maybe something borrowed by another of the writers of the gospels and probably where the phrase came from to begin with 'what I have written I have written'.

    Yeah, I can see it. Once you get these shades of this could have been what happened on, just think of the unlimited possibilities.

    You guys are right. The Bible is too restrictive for the world to ever be attracted to its teachings alone.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  5. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    The line in question is heard in Aramaic, but it's heard in the crowd, along with several other things said. The reason Mel cut the line from the subtitles is because it emphasizes that one line, and gives no credence to the other things said. Indeed, when hearing it in Aramaic, it doesn't really stand out (again, my aramaic is pretty poor). Mel explained that he would have preferred to expand that scene to put that line in the full context in which it was delivered, but since the subtitles are done post prodution (after principal photography is completed), one's editing choices are limited. </font>[/QUOTE]Makes sense. I was just carrying on a little bit, considering that probably 1 out of 10,000 who see the movie will even know any Aramaic. I'm waiting for the sound-track to come out so they can start playing it backwards to see what is "back-tracked" -- remember, the old rock and roll record days? If they do, it probably won't say "I am satan, worship me, blah blah" It will probably say: "You are THURSTY, Drink Coca-Cola NOW!" Hmmmmmm, maybe that's the reason so many people missed small, but important parts of the movie, they were mesmerized by the hidden messages in the Aramaic and they were all out buying their cokes. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  6. MalkyEL

    MalkyEL Guest

    Phillip wrote:
    What are you going to do about the millions of people who see the movie? Witness to them or tell them they saw an evil movie?

    Are you going to tell them that they didn't beat Christ to a pulp?

    Are you going to tell them He didn't die on a cross?

    Are you going to tell them He didn't rise again?

    That's what I saw when I watched it. What did you see?

    MalkyEL: I saw a trashy film about a man who was depicted as fearful and weak - who was saturated in mysticism, bludgeoned to a bloody gruesome pulp, who worshipped satan, and got to be a co-redeemer with his mother. It was not about God, manifested in the flesh, to be my Savior and King.
    [see 1 Tim 3:16]

    Luke 13:24 Labor to enter in through the narrow gate, for I say to you that many will seek to enter in and will not have strength.
    25 From the time the Master of the house shall have risen up, and He shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. And answering, He will say to you, I do not know you, from where you are.
    26 Then you will begin to say, We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.
    27 And He will say, I tell you I do not know you, from where you are. "Stand back from Me all workers of unrighteousness!" Psa. 6:8

    His Word is my testimony to the lost.

    His Suffering and Death prophecied:

    Isaiah 52:13-15
    Isaiah 53
    Psalm 22
    Isaiah 50:6,7

    His Suffering and Death fulfilled:

    Matt 26:66, 67
    Matt 27:27-50
    Mark 14:64, 55
    Mark 15:12-39
    Luke 23:8-49
    John 18:19-40
    John 19:1-42

    What is there about His Word that is not enough?
     
  7. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Just spoke to a man in the cafeteria about the movie.

    He said he believed it showed the Jews as they really were, that which they have tried for centuries to cover up. He said they didn't have to kill Jesus.

    I asked him if he really thought they had a choice.

    he said sure they did. I said, not if you believe the Bible. He said, well, all that stuff is so opinionated who can believe it?

    I told him I believed it, I told him I believed Jesus gave his life of his own will, that it was the purpose of God to make him the sacrifice for our sins.

    He said, well, the Jews killed him, if you want to believe the Bible, that is your business.

    I guess I should have seen the film so I could relate to him better, obviously the word of God isn't enough in this graphically charged information hungry world. [​IMG]

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  8. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    Phillip : You said "Oh my goodness, my socks are still on because I got tired after the first 50 paragraphs. Okay, let's assume all of that is true and has a true background. What are you going to do about the millions of people who see the movie? Witness to them or tell them they saw an evil movie?"

    Are you referring to that website that had stuff about the prayers of st. bridget, that many catholics all over the world pray, and the pope endorses and they have tribute to in the church of rome?

    It is true....look all over the net. That stuff is everywhere. Look at this:

    In St. Bridget's third prayer, believed by many Catholics to have been given directly from Christ in a vision to her, she stated:

    "...remember the very bitter pain Thou didst suffer when the Jews nailed Thy Sacred Hands and Feet to the Cross by blow after blow with big blunt nails, and not finding Thee in a pitiable enough state to satisfy their rage, they enlarged Thy Wounds, and added pain to pain, and with indescribable cruelty stretched Thy Body on the Cross, pulled Thee from all sides, thus dislocating Thy Limbs."

    That is soooooooooooo wrong. So contrary to Scripture. And we know Spirit of God cannot contradict the Spirit of God, meaning that what is believed to be from Christ has to align to His Word. And that site even showed the official catholic position on that. And I verified it on the net. It is definitely a possibility that when some people see the film and brutal beating, that believe those mystic revelations were really from Christ, they are going to see it as 'those Jews" killed Jesus like that. And that is wrong, don't you agree???
     
  9. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    46. What does the term "Road to Rome" mean?

    "The Road to Rome" means the "Apostolic road" which leads only to the Catholic Church, and one who desires to find the True Church rapidly should take that road. For the True Church is Apostolic in origin and continuity, and must remain so till the end of time. Protestants broke with the Apostolic authority of the Catholic Church on the core of corruptions in teachings and practices. Yet more and more we notice Protestants borrowing Catholic teachings and practices, urging that it was a great mistake to abandon them at the Reformation! What they fail to see is this: the more they prove that the Reformation was not justified, the more they increase the guilt of their separation from the Apostolic jurisdiction legitimately transmitted in the Catholic Church. Nor will the borrowing of Catholic externals ever succeed in making them Catholics. There is no Catholicity without genuine Apostolicity. There is but one way to be Catholic, and that is to submit to the Apostolic authority of the Catholic Church. To be a Catholic, a man must become one; and no attempts which wander from the "Apostolic Road" will ever succeed in leading anyone to the True Church of Jesus Christ.

    47. The fourth sign of the True Church is universality. Do you mean by that "Catholicity"?

    Minds are becoming less clouded. The old anti-Catholic bitterness is dying. The word "Catholic" in the Creed is awakening a vague idea that somehow or other we ought to be Catholics. Protestants, therefore, are beginning to take their profession of belief in the Holy Catholic Church seriously. And great is the confusion. Imagine the confusion if men came in the night and planted at some crossroads a dozen sign posts with the same inscription, but pointing in as many different directions, where hitherto there had been but one! The wayfarer could not but be bewildered, unless he managed to detect the more recently planted posts, and was thus able to discover the direction indicated by the original sign post.

    The Goal of the Universal Invisible Church
     
  10. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Ok, maybe I am being too harsh on Mel, here is something he has said, I have tried to take a balanced look at it to see how much difference there is in what he believes and the Bible teaches.

    Note:
    Below are responses from the web-site at the link provided in my previous post. (these are not Mel's remarks), so give him a break...ok.
    64. Do you maintain that one is obliged to. join your infallible, one, holy, Catholic, Apostolic, and indefectible Church, if he wished to be saved?

    If a man realizes that the Catholic Church is the True Church, he must join it if he wishes to save his soul. That is the normal law. But if he does not realize this obligation, is true to his conscience, even though it be erroneous, and dies repenting of any violations of his conscience, he will get to Heaven. In such a case, it would not have been his fault that he was a non-Catholic and God makes every allowance for good faith.

    65. What are the conditions for the salvation of such a good Protestant?

    He must have Baptism at least of desire; he must be ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church is the only True Church; he must not be responsible for that ignorance by deliberately neglecting to inquire when doubts have perhaps come to him about his position; and he must die with perfect contrition for his sins, and with sincere love of God. But such good dispositions are an implicit will to be a Catholic. For the will to do God's will is the will to fulfill all that He commands. Such a man would Join the Catholic Church did he realize that was part of God's will. In this sense the Catholic Church is the only road to Heaven, all who are saved belonging to her either actually or implicitly.

    66. Since Protestants can be saved, and it is ever so much easier to be a Protestant, where is the advantage in being Catholic?

    Firstly, remember the conditions of salvation for a Protestant. If he has never suspected his obligation to join the Catholic Church, it is possible for him to be saved. But it is necessary to become a Catholic or be lost if one has the claims of the Catholic Church sufficiently put before him. I myself could not attain salvation did I leave the Catholic Church, unless, of course, I repented sincerely of so sinful a step before I died. Secondly, it is easier to live up to Protestant requirements than to live up to Catholic requirements. Non-Catholic Churches do not exact so high a standard of their followers as does the Catholic Church of hers. But that is not the question. It is much easier to be a really good Christian in the full sense of the word as a Catholic than as a Protestant, and surely that is what we wish. What advantages contribute to this? They are really too many to enumerate in a brief reply. The Catholic is a member of the one True Church established by Christ. He has the glorious certainty of the true Faith, and complete knowledge of the whole of Christian truth is much better than partial information, if not erroneous information. By submission to the authority of Christ in His Church he has the advantage of doing God's will just as God desires. If he fails at times by sin, he has the certainty of forgiveness by sacramental absolution in the Confessional. He has the privilege of attending Holy Mass Sunday after Sunday, and the immense help of Holy Communion by which he may receive our Lord Himself as the food of his soul. He has the privilege of sharing in the sufferings of Christ, by observing the precepts of fasting and mortification. He receives innumerable graces from Sacramentals and from the special blessings of the Church. He may gain very useful indulgences, and canceling much of the expiation of his sins which would otherwise have to be endured in Purgatory. And he is more loved by God in virtue of his being a Christian rather than a pagan, so there is an immense advantage in being a true Christian and belonging to the one True Church rather than to some false form of Christianity. Thus a good Catholic has many advantages over and above those possessed by a good and sincere Protestant. But, as I have remarked, if a Protestant begins to suspect his own Church to be defective, inquiries into the matter, and becomes convinced that the Catholic Church is the True Church, he has no option but to Join that Church if he desires to avoid the risk of eternal loss.

    I guess Mel does believe salvation is by Grace through faith, and that not of himself, but that guy in the chair...there... [​IMG]

    Does this mean having read the arguments of the true Catholic church that I cannot be saved apart from joining that church?

    [​IMG] yeah right

    Bro. Dallas
     
  11. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    Phillip you said "sharpSword: Your doing good, glad to have you here (in all seriousness). You will be sliced, diced and stomped on here, after all we're all good Christians. "

    Well, thank you very much, Phillip. I did say I was new to the BB forum, not "new" to the use of the Sword. [​IMG] :D

    Phillip yu said "Once you get to know a few of us, you will enjoy the debates. I for one am not a King James Only person. I believe that my ESV is also the Word of God, but I do NOT have a problem with a KJV EITHER. So, whether you are KJVO or a heathen like me, you are welcome to debate in the Bible translation section too where we also slice, dice and pickle. Have a great day and nice to meet you"

    Oh I LUV a good discussion...especially when people can back up what they have to say to the Word of God. I am not KJV Only....just use it cause I love the sound. And its in my computer program... [​IMG]

    "debate in the Bible translation section too where we also slice, dice and pickle."

    That almost sounds like a kitchen class...Are there women there??? :D [​IMG]

    No, I don't think women belong in the kitchen. [​IMG] I meant the terms "slice, dice and pickle." But now that you mention it, that is what a "SharpSword" is for. [​IMG]


    Thanks for the welcome and the heads up.
     
  12. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Dear Sharpsword,
    see my post just before yours (March 19, 2004 6:48 pm by my screentime). Just before the post where you made the above statement.

    This movie is not drawing anyone to Christ, only to the gore. It is not causing folks to read or study the word of God, but to increase their low opinion of that word.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  13. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    Dallas, Don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about or coming from unless you believe Church history is irrelevant. :confused:
     
  14. sharpSword

    sharpSword Guest

    Dear Dallas, Thank you. I did read it. There does seem to be statements being made that if one rejects the movie one is an enemy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or and an enemy of Jesus....and I have seen some say that they must be Jewish. :(

    And I have seen similar to what you have stated.
    That is a sad state of affairs when the movie is neither proven Historically correct or Scripturally true--meaning all in it does not align to Scripture.
    I keep trying to get an answer to some questions and maybe you can help answer them.

    In the movie, Jesus is portrayed as being afraid and weak. Yet, if He was really afraid as the movie states, that would mean He sinned. And if He sinned, then He would not be the perfect sacrifice, nor would He be Divine. To me that says the work of the cross would be eliminated, according to that portrayal of Jesus. Do you think that is a viable analysis? :confused:

    1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
    22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
    23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
    24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
     
  15. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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    I do not profess to know what Mel truly believes, but I found these quotes that were posted on a Jewish website to be of interest:


    Gibson: [My father] writes books about canon law and Catholicism.
    Playboy: Have you read them?
    Gibson: Yeah. He is pretty sound canonically and theologically. He's a bookish guy. Uses words I've never heard of.
    Playboy: What does he have to do with the Alliance for Catholic Tradition, which one magazine called "an extreme conservative Catholic splinter group"?
    Gibson: He started it. Some people say it's extreme, but it emphasizes what the institution was and where it's going. Everything he was taught to believe was taken from him in the Sixties with this renewal Vatican Council. The whole institution became unrecognizable to him, so he writes about it.
    Playboy, (July, 1995).

    "Why are they calling her a Nazi? Because modern secular Judaism wants to blame the Holocaust on the Catholic Church. And it's a lie. And it's revisionism. And they've been working on that one for a while."
    On criticism of Anne Catherine Emmerich, a nineteenth-century nun whose writings influenced his
    portrayal of Jesus' death. The New Yorker, September 15, 2003


    "My dad taught me my faith, and I believe what he taught me. The man never lied to me in his life."
    New York Post, January 30, 2004
     
  16. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Dallas, Don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about or coming from unless you believe Church history is irrelevant. :confused: </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Kiffin,
    Sorry to confuse you so much, but Baptists do teach church history too. We just don't use any mysticism, or rely on dreamers.

    Folks don't usually listen to Church history, because they accept the Catholic lie which bears the meaning of its name as the Catholic church and has come from the Protestant tradition. Which tradition btw never began its snowball to become schismatic protest-ants but rather to simply reform the church the way that era of history is labelled.

    So, I said, go figure. Folks arent' interested in what me and you know about church history (on the whole).

    Again, sorry to have confused or offended you. I just know that in trying to teach church history many will lay to your feet the charge of claiming salvation to be in the church---btw, another Catholic falsehood.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  17. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    yes, sharpSword, the Bible definitely teaches that Jesus endured the cross for the joy that was set before him.

    I do not believe he feared or was weak in doing any portion of this. In fact, I beleive as you do, if he had been weak, he could not have fulfilled the typology of the passover lamb, which was offered in its prime of life and vigor. Having been separated from the herd and watched to verify its vigor.

    Yes, thus saith the Lord is quickly becoming 'artistic license' demands it.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  18. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Lookie, lookie, I have been studying. Thought I would share the blessings with you guys:

    I have already shown how the Catholic Church intends to pervade true Christianity, that is, imho, the priesthood of the believer.

    We as Baptist believe Christ is the head of the Church, none other.

    We as Baptist believe in the priesthood of the believer, this means to me that while Christ is the head of the Church, he must become my head, my LORD and my SAVIOR. Then and only then am I worthy of presenting myself for Baptism and membership into his body...but first, He has made himself the head of my life in all things.

    My disobedience or failure to follow him in Baptism will not and cannot change his headship of the church.

    We as Baptist, though differing in some aspects, believe in a local visible church. Some will take the belief that all born again believers have become members of a universal or invisible church (by the belief that the Holy Spirit Baptizes believers into the body of Christ). I do not believe this.

    I believe the Holy Spirit does certainly indwell beleivers. I beleive the Holy Spirit Baptized the church on the day of Pentecost. To make all believers to receive individually this baptism of the Spirit, then imho, makes the church catholic (universal) and invisible.

    I do not believe I can receive eternal life and submit to an unscriptural baptism, or fail to submit to any semblance of baptism to enter into any 'church' capacity and yet be a member of the church which Christ established---that is his bride.

    In showing the intent of the Catholic to clouding the minds of those holding dear their personal belief in Christ and their personal access to the throne of Grace through Christ alone I posted two articles taken from a website of questions and answers located at the following url:
    Catholic Faith

    a link found at that url:
    Mary as mother of God, of believers and of the church

    also shows further the reason I cannot and will not receive this movie (The Passion of the Christ) as an evangelical tool, which is able or will be able to be used of God to bring the lost to himself through the drawing of the Holy Spirit to the personal belief that Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God.

    Let others believe what they will. Let me also say that in this discussion particularly, but perhaps also in all others related to this topic I have maybe offended some of you. You have my sincere apologies for any unChristian behavior you have sensed in me. But I refuse to apologize for my conviction that we must remain separate from anything that the world embraces as a means to draw and conform the lost to the mind of Christ.

    The efforts of the Catholic Church have always been hidden behind the liturgy of pretended piety. While the open practice of indulgences may not be practiced today, this is yet a very real part of the Catholic faith and practice. While any will speak of the Lord Jesus Christ in the same breath as the supposed immacculate virgin mother of God, I will oppose any offering or appearance of an offering they will present before me as an evangelical tool.

    God has said he will not give his glory to another. This Glory belonged to the Son before the incarnation (John 17.1) This Glory has returned to the Son and thereby the Father is Glorified. Mary, the church, nor any other institution or person can find no place nor part in that Eternal Glory.

    To join hands with Jezebel, there is a distinct warning against in scripture written to the church in Thyatira.

    This is a long thread and for that I apologize, but please take the time to read from below. Where you are in agreement with this document please let me know. Where you beleive it is ok to overlook such presentation of this document through the gory images presented by the Passion of Christ, please let me know.

    There have been some who have wondered as to whether I only enjoyed conspiracy theories. Well, it is anyone's personal liberty to think of me what they will.

    You can rest assured from now until the Lord returns for his own (or sends the queen of heaven) what ever your personal preference, or maybe you don't think it important at all, but either way, you can rest assured that though Bro. Dallas is particular in what he believes, I will never tell anyone of you that you must be in line with me, precept upon precept, or there is no truth in you.

    This, imho, is no more than a means to draw many toward the faith of the Catholic church. Where you are able to join hands with them and say we are one and the same, that is your business. If I am condemned in the end because of my refusal to bow before any image lifted up pretended to be a true and even an historical account of the passion of my Lord, then so to will I be condemned for the believe in my heart that Christ alone is the Lamb of God through whose name alone we are to approach the throne of Grace. If this be my eternal condemnation, then at that time you can join in with the mother of God the eternal queen of heaven, the co-redeemer of the world, eternally united with the Spirit of God from the moment of her obedience to his will to enter into the world through her person. And I will go to that place prepared for me and the god of this world. Not without a belief in my heart that Christ alone has suffered without the gate and Christ alone has led captivity captive, but a refusal to bow my knee even in the depths of hell to the person, message or purpose of the queen mother.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton II


    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
    SECOND EDITION
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    PART ONE
    THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
    SECTION TWO
    THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

    CHAPTER THREE
    I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

    ARTICLE 9
    "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

    Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church

    963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503

    I. MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH

    Wholly united with her Son . . .

    964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:


    Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505

    965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507

    . . . also in her Assumption

    966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:


    In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

    . . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

    967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)510 of the Church.

    968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

    969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

    970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

    * II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

    971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

    III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH

    972 After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"518 the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.


    In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.519

    IN BRIEF

    973 By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

    974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

    975 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG § 15).


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    502 LG 53; cf. St. Augustine, De virg. 6:pL 40,399.
    503 Paul VI, Discourse, November 21, 1964.
    504 LG 57.
    505 LG 58; cf. Jn 19:26-27.
    506 LG 69.
    507 LG 59.
    508 LG 59; cf. Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus (1950):DS 3903; cf. Rev 19:16.
    509 Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.
    510 LG 53; 63.
    511 LG 61.
    512 LG 62.
    513 LG 60.
    514 LG 62.
    515 Lk 1:48; Paul VI, MC 56.
    516 LG 66.
    517 Cf. Paul VI, MC 42; SC 103.
    518 LG 69.
    519 LG 68; Cf. 2 Pet 3 10.
     
  19. BrotherRobert

    BrotherRobert New Member

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    It would be interesting if such a movie honestly depicted any false messiahs associated with other Jewish revolts against invading occupiers that encouraged the nation to rise up and lead to defeat of the Jews.

    An example comes to mind of a false messiah by the name of Bar Kokba circa that authorized a Jewish revolt against Rome circa 160 AD.

    As for the Macabees (about 150 BC), since they succeeded, they were annointed by GOD to throw out the Greek invaders and restore ancient Israel to its servant nation status to GOD.

    The 2 Books of Macabees are in the Catholic Bible between the Old and New Testaments - in the "Apochrapha" (spelling?), but not in the Protestant Bible.
     
  20. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth New Member

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