Made in the "image" of God

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. - Gen. 1:26-27

    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    - Col. 1:15

    Man is the only creature that the scriptures say was made in the "image of God."

    1. Some creatures share biological physical life with man (breath, blood, body)

    2. Some creatures share moral and rational likenesses with God (angels).

    Hence, the image of God cannot be physical, since he is "invisible" (Col. 1:15).

    It cannot refer to physical characteristics of life (blood, breath, body) as animals share this in common with man but are not made in the "image" of the "invisible God."

    It cannot be moral and rational ability as angels share moral and rational ability and they are not said to be created in the "image" of God although they are invisible.

    Genesis 1:26-27 provides some insights in the fact that man is created in the singular image of a plural "us." He is a Trinity and so is man (spirit...soul....body - 1 Thes. 5:23).

    Genesis 1:26-27 also states he is made to RULE over the earth and God is the Ruler over all. Animals are not made to rule and angels were made to serve ("messengers").

    Genesis 2:7 teaches that unlike the rest of biological life on earth man is the only creature that receives its life directly by God imparting it into him:


    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. - Gen. 2:7

    God does not have physical lungs to blow physical air. The literal hebrew text uses the plural "breath of lives." There is more than mere biological life that all animals share in common with man (body, blood, air). Man, like God has a spiritual life and a rational moral soul/self-conscious life that can exist inside as well as outside of a biological life form. God is a spirit with a conscious "soul" that can live without a biological body or in a biological body (The incarnation). Man has the added dimension that enables him to worship and fellowship with God "in spirit." Animals have no such dimension and capability.

    It is this combination of unique likenesses with God that constitute the "image of God."

    A moral/rational being that is multi-dimensional in nature (three-fold) that can consciously exist within or without a biological life form and worship in "spirit."
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Jun 12, 2013
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  2. TrevorL

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    Greetings The Biblicist,

    This thread was about to disappear off the front page with no replies and 55 views. I am not sure if that says that most of these viewers agreed with your thread, or did not want to discuss this subject for some other reasons. I would like to give a few statements / responses to give a different perspective to some of what you have stated.
    How can you prove that the angels are invisible? They appeared many times, and some of these times they were simply mistaken for men. They were certainly visible on these occasions. How can you claim that the image and likeness that man was destined to share in Genesis 1:26-27 is not moral and rational ability? This concept is a theme throughout Scripture and the following is a good example of this theme.
    1 John 3:1-3 (KJV): 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

    The “us” of Genesis 1:26-27 is not referring to the Trinity, but it is God the Father inviting the angels to participate in the creation of man.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    First, they are called "ministering SPIRITS" - Heb. 1:14 - and Jesus said a spirit doth not have flesh and bones.

    Second, Hebrews said that Christ did not take upon himself the nature of angels but of men - Heb. 2:16

    Third, God also revealed Himself to men in visible forms and yet we read of the "invisible" image of God - Col. 1:15


    If you will read the conclusion of my post once again, I am not denying that it is included, but it is not what makes the "image" of God unique from that of animals and angels.





    First, no angels are mentioned. Isaiah 40 denies that God took counsel with anyone but Himself. So your hypothesis is completely imaginary with no contextual basis whatsoever.

    Second, the grammar contradicts you. The Text does not say "And God said UNTO" anyone. The term "God" or "Elohim" is a plural and the pronouns also are plurals "us...our" In addition the verb and object are singular "make....image." This is the only possible way in Hebrew Grammar to express ONE God in a pluralityof Persons.

    You are biased against the grammar because of your preconceived rejection of the God of the Bible who is a Triune Being just as man is a Triune being ("spirit....soul....body").
     
  4. TrevorL

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    Greetings again The Biblicist,

    Jesus was speaking of himself after the resurrection and I believe that he had by then been changed from a fleshly body to a spirit body. The difference is not in appearance, or flesh and bones, but in the fact that he no longer needed blood and air to sustain his life. His life was sustained by the Spirit of God. I believe that the Apostles imagined that they saw a phantasma, a ghost.
    Agreed, but Jesus was made a little lower than the angels as the immediate context states.
    Hebrews 2:9 (KJV): But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
    This phrase “made a little lower than the angels” is taken from Psalm 8 and this is David’s commentary / summary of Genesis 1:26-27, showing that the angels were involved in the creation of man and that man was made in the image and after the likeness of God the Father and the angels.
    Whenever it says that God was revealed, I believe it was in and through the angels. They represented and manifested God the Father.

    This may be part of your explanation, but I do not agree with your overall estimation of what constitutes man as in the image of God.

    My proof is in Psalm 8:5 where KJV “angels" is “elohim”. This shows that “elohim" in Genesis 1:26-27 includes the angels, not a Trinity. The singular in v27 shows that even though the angels were involved it is God who is the principal cause, it is His Power and Wisdom that makes Him the creator.
    Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
    Matthew 11:25 (KJV): At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,

    Jesus in the above is summarising / quoting Psalm 8, the creation Psalm.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #4 TrevorL, Jun 19, 2013
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  5. The Biblicist

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    You are making my point! He is addressing what they thought they saw a "phantasma, a ghost" or a "spirit." His body was MATERIAL with flesh and bones not merely the appearance of flesh and bones. They could actually thrust their fingers into his PHYSICAL wounds.

    Spirits have no flesh and bones or MATERIAL bodies but are immaterial with only the APPEARANCE of a human body, and only when they make themselves visible. The fact that fallen angels can work IN people demonstrates they are invisible spirits. Demon possession is a IMMATERIAL SPIRIT taken up residence WITHIN a human.


    The nature of angels is superior in strength and power to man in the scale of God's creatures.

    Psalm 8 says nor suggest any such thing. It attributes God alone as creator and says NOTHING about angels joining with God in counsel or attributing in any way in creation.

    Your position on Genesis 1:26-27 is PURE IMAGINATION without any Biblical or contextual basis.


    The rightness of it does not rest upon whether YOU agree with it or not but on its Biblical basis.


    This is purely presumptive reasoning. Psalm 82:1 calls men "elohim" due to their position of power over others and in Psalm 8 the nature of angels is superior in power over men but there is no HINT that either men or angels who are equally called "elohim" in regard to POWER aided God in creation.



    Nowhere in Scripture can you ever find the noun "elohim" inclusive of God and Creatures acting unitedly doing anything! In both Genesis 1:1,26-27 only God is mentioned. Psalm 8 does not say one word about angels aiding in the creation of man. Neither does the grammar in Psalm 85 support that idea. Indeed, Psalm 8 says the very reverse, it attributes the creation of both angels and man to God alone.


    Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels,

    Note that the subject doing the action in Psalm 8:5 is neither angels or men but God alone "thou." Neither angels or man share in the action of the verb "made" but both are the objects of that action. Geneiss 1:1 makes no reference to angels. Genesis 1:26-27 makes no reference to angels. Isaiah 40:12-13 emphatically deny that Elohim took counself with angels or anyone else in creating this world:


    12 ¶ Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
    13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?



    Moreover God repeatedly claims to have created the universe ALONE and BY HIMSELF:

    Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
     
    #5 The Biblicist, Jun 19, 2013
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  6. TrevorL

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    Greetings again The Biblicist,

    I believe that Jesus in resurrection as a Spirit body is no different to angels who have Spirit bodies. I do not accept the concept that a Spirit body is immaterial. The angels can cause themselves not to be seen, not because they are immaterial. If a human body could block out the light coming from it in the normal visible range then a man would also be invisible, but a material body nonetheless. Jesus was a Spirit body after his resurrection, but could enter a room undetected by the apostles initially.
    I do not believe in fallen angels in the same sense as you are suggesting here.
    Yes, but their strength and power and immortal nature is derived from God.
    Psalm 8 is David’s commentary on Genesis 1:26-27 and despite your denial it is to me at least the only obvious interpretation of these passages, giving a clear explanation of the plurality in Genesis. Please also consider the plural in the following, and again the only explanation is the involvement of the angels.
    Genesis 3:4-5 (KJV): 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
    Genesis 3:22-23 (KJV): 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

    The plurality in the above is not speaking of the Trinity.
    They are called elohim because they represent God and act on his behalf using God’s wisdom and authority. They are not independent authorities, but acted as judges representing God and his justice.
    Yes Psalm 8:5 is Yahweh, God the Father creating man, but he used the angels as agents.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #6 TrevorL, Jun 20, 2013
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  7. The Biblicist

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    You do not understand what a spiritual "body" is. The body that went into the grave is the body that came out of the grave and the marks prove it. Second the Bible demands it as the Bible clearly states the body that went into the grave would not see "corruption." Third, that is the meaning of "resurrection" to "rise up" and only what is laid down can rise up. Fourth, you are repudiating Christ who denies that a "spirit" has flesh and bond or material existence. Of course you have the right to be unbibical and wrong.


     
  8. TrevorL

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    Greetings again The Biblicist,

    I appreciate your latest response, but I would like to briefly address the following from your earlier Post.
    Please note in the following passage we have the following sequence:
    1. The statement that Yahweh appears to Abraham.
    2. The record of what Yahweh says to Abraham
    3. The statement that God then leaves Abraham
    Genesis 17:1-3 (KJV): 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, (refer also vv4-20)
    Genesis 17:21-22 (KJV): 21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. 22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.


    This whole manifestation of God is by means of an angel, not God Himself because of the following principle:
    John 1:18 (KJV): No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    Exodus 33:20 (KJV): And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

    The conclusion from this is that Yahweh is revealed, represented, manifested by means of his angels, and they speak and act on his behalf. The name Yahweh and the title God is used for and by these angels when they represent and speak on behalf of God. This is in direct opposition to what you have stated above.

    Another example of how the word Elohim is used interchangeably for the angels is in the case of Samson’s parents:
    Judges 13:21-22 (KJV): 21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

    The same can be said for the name Yahweh, where an angel speaks as if he were God the Father, Himself.
    Judges 6:11-16 (KJV): 11 And there came an angel of the LORD, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites. 12 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour. 13 And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites. 14 And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee? 15 And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father’s house. 16 And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.
    The angel speaks on Yahweh’s behalf, then it reads as if the Angel is Yahweh Himself as the angel looks upon Gideon and speaks, Gideon replies to the angel as “my Lord”, and then again the Angel replies as if he is Yahweh Himself.

    Briefly Yahweh appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18, but the record says that this appearance was “three men”:
    Genesis 18:1-2 (KJV): 1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
    This is obviously three angels, and one of them especially is the representative of Yahweh.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #8 TrevorL, Jun 21, 2013
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  9. TrevorL

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    Greetings again The Biblicist,

    From your most recent Post I would like to only comment on the following:
    Yes I agree. I believe in the literal resurrection of Jesus, the resurrection of his body, and that his body did not see corruption.

    I am not sure if my previous Post on the sharing of the words Yahweh and Elohim with the Angels have made my view any clearer, but I see Psalm 8:5 as a simple and profound summary of Genesis 1:26-27. Note the word translated “Angels” here in the KJV is “Elohim”. If the Spirit wanted to say angels though then there is another word in the Hebrew. But Elohim here is really the angels because they were involved in the creation as invited in Genesis 1:26, and yet Adam and Jesus when made were lower than the angels, that is made in their image and after their likeness, as testified and endorsed by Paul in Hebrews 2. Note the “Thou” of Psalm 8:5 is Yahweh Himself, taken from Psalm 8:1 and endorsed to be the Father by Jesus in Matthew 11:25.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    The term "angel" simply means "messenger" and these appearances are not "angels" but the preincarnate appearances of Jesus Christ or Theophanies.
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    3 ¶ When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
    4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
    6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
    7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
    8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.


    This might be a summary of Genesis chapter one but not of Genesis 1:26-27. Note verses 3,6-8. The whole work of creation not merely Genesis 1:26-27.

    Second, you are ignoring the inspired testimony of the writer of hebrews who does not choose any Greek eqivilent to "elohim" at all but clearly states the intended meaning that God created man in comparison to angels different in nature that was lower in rank and power in creation.

    Third, this is exactly the intent of David. David does not say in any way shape or form, or convey that angels joined in with God in the creation of man but rather he makes the same comparison of man in regard to the "lower" nature in regard to rank and power. David uses "elohim" in the same exact sense as he does in Psalm 82 of judges who stand in a position of greater rank and power than other men.
     
    #11 The Biblicist, Jun 21, 2013
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  12. The Biblicist

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    The Bible commands us to test the spirits behind people. I am going to test the spirit behind you by asking a very simple straightforward question:

    Do you believe Jesus is Lord according to the contextual implications in 1 Cor. 12:3?

    3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    Paul is not referring to the ability to simply verbalize the phrase "Jesus is Lord" as even demons can say that and do say that without the Holy Ghost.

    What Paul is referring to is something that only "by the Holy Ghost" can be uttered and refers to the PERSONAL EXPERIENTIAL COVENANT MEANING of the word "LORD."

    Do you claim Him in regard to your own personal covenant experience of salvation as your ULTIMATE "Lord" = Yahweh who alone is ultimate "LORD" as illustrated in the response of Thomas "my Lord and my God" His Creator and Redeemer God.
     
  13. TrevorL

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    Greetings again The Biblicist,

    I appreciate your latest response, but I have been offline for the weekend as we have had a combined study and fraternal Saturday and Sunday with seven of our regional meetings. I feel encouraged, nourished and refreshed. We had a visiting speaker who expounded aspects of Luke’s Gospel, especially portions unique to Luke. Our Sunday memorial talk was on the prominent theme in Luke, where Jesus steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem:
    Luke 9:51 (KJV): And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem.

    Due to the above commitments I prepared most of the following offline, and only taken a copy of your latest responses #11 and #12. I have briefly read your two latest Posts #11 and # 12 and I found both interesting and challenging. I hope to answer these properly in a day or two.

    I assume you will have much the same response to the first section of my following reply, but I decided to leave it as is.

    I decided to answer a few more aspects of your earlier responses. Firstly the following is a few more references in response to your earlier statement:
    Genesis 32:24-30 (KJV): 24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved
    Hosea 12:2-5 (KJV): 2 The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. 3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: 4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us; 5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.

    Exodus 3:2-6 (KJV): 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

    Exodus 23:20-21 (KJV): 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.


    I do not see the need to add any additional comment to these except to say that the angels work as ministering agents for God, and in this role they have the Name Yahweh and the Title Elohim applied to them. I believe these passages contradict your statement.

    I am not sure why you objected to my statement concerning the Angel’s having an immortal nature. I believe that the following teaches that the Angels will not die any more, and to me this equates with immortality.
    Luke 20:35-36 (KJV): 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    I was surprised at your answer here. Have you ever questioned why the KJV translators rendered “elohim” here as gods? I do not have any notes on the reason, but I am sure that they discussed this and decided it was not talking about the Trinity but the angels. The NET Bible translates this as “divine beings” and explains in the Notes that this could be the angels. They also suggest that the “us” of Genesis 1:26 and 3:22 could be the angels. I imagine that these NET Bible translators are Trinitarians.

    Kind regrds
    Trevor
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    I have answered these types of verses already but as ususal you just ignore answers and repeat things that have been answered. What don't you understand about the term "theophany"??????? What don't you understand about the the term "angel" and its other meaning of simply a "messenger" and that Jesus is the messenger of the covenant and these are preincarnate manifestations of Him and He is Yahweh the Son???? I see you completely ignored my test of the spirit behind you in my last post. You can't claim Jesus as "LORD" can you (refer to my last post before attempting to answer this question).


    No they do not contradict my statement at all. You need to read my statement before responding to it. However, you really don't care about the evidence do you? All you want to do is spout your unbiblical errors.


    Read my response again! I did not object to their "immortal" nature. I objected to your interpretation of Psalm 8 and that they were "elohim" IN NATURE. I asserted rightfully that "elohim" in Psalm 8 has reference only to their superior POSITION and POWER above man. I rightly pointed out that the INSPIRED writer of Hebrews interprets Psalm 8 exactly as I do and directly contradictive to your interpretation. Try reading my responses for a change.


    The Translators of the KJV were all TRINITARIANS. The same Being that spoke in Genesis 1;26-27 is the Same Being using the plural pronoun to describe Himself in the following passages:

    Ge 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    Ge 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.

    The same Being using a plural pronoun in Gen. 1:26 is the same Being claiming the same work in Gen. 5:1 and no angels are included:

    Ge 5:1 ¶ This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

    Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

    He never includes angels in any account where it specifically says man was "MADE" in His image.

    The Bible NEVER says man shares the same IMAGE with angels but the writer of hebews quoting your very proof text in Psalm 8 DENIES angels are in the same IMAGE as man.
     
  15. TrevorL

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    Greetings again The Biblicist,
    I agree that psalm 8 is looking at all the creation, all of Genesis 1, but what I stated is “I see Psalm 8:5 as a simple and profound summary of Genesis 1:26-27”, and in particular the first part of Psalm 8:5.
    Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, ….
    Genesis 1:26-27 (KJV): 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    But the writer of Hebrews substitutes the NT word for Angels, while in Psalm 8:5 the word is Elohim, the normal word translated God in the OT. Paul is therefore showing that the true meaning of Elohim in Psalm 8:5 is the Angels.
    I almost agree except that you reject the idea that the angels and judges were called Elohim because they represented, acted and spoke on behalf of Yahweh, God the Father. To call any man or an angel “God” would be false worship or false respect unless the reason is that God is united in this work of representation.

    The following may help by clarifying why the judges were called Elohim or God or gods in Psalm 82 and John 10. It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
    Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
    Exodus 21:6: then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

    Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
    Exodus 22:8-9: 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor.


    The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
    Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
    2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.

    So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  16. TrevorL

    TrevorL
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    Greetings again The Biblicist,
    First I believe and acknowledge Jesus as Lord, as my Lord and my Saviour. I would like to suggest though from what you state above is that our view of Jesus as Lord appears to be different.

    Looking at some Scripture, we have both words “Lord” and “Yahweh” in both the following:
    Psalm 8:1 (KJV): O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
    Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    In both of these the word Yahweh is represented the word LORD in capitals, while the word Lord is in lower case. In Psalm 8:5 it is speaking of Yahweh who is God the Father as Lord, He is both Yahweh and Lord. In Psalm 110:1 it is speaking of Yahweh who is God the Father and Yahweh is speaking to another being, the Lord Jesus Christ who is David’s Lord.

    God the Father is Lord of heaven and earth and he has now exalted Jesus Christ to become Lord.
    Matthew 11:25-27 (KJV):
    25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
    Acts 2:34-36 (KJV): 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ[/u].


    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  17. TrevorL

    TrevorL
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    Greetings again The Biblicist,
    I am sorry to frustrate you but I am trying to catch up in part due to other commitments. I believe the various theophanies were God revealing Himself through His Angels not Jesus.
    I suggest we have a different perspective here. Paul’s point in Hebrews is that Jesus was made lower than the angels so that he could suffer death. The Angels do not suffer death, so they are immortal. I was not using the word elohim to prove that the angels were immortal. The word “elohim” can apply both to angels who are immortal, and to judges who were mortal.
    I appreciate your comments, but I believe that Adam and Jesus were made in the image of God and the angels.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Angels can fly - that does not mean they cannot also stand or sit.

    Angels can be invisible - that does not mean they cannot also choose to be visible.

    Angels absolutely have physical characteristics such as wings, hands, faces etc according to scripture. The two angels and one God that met with Abraham all had physical attributes that cannot be denied as physical.

    Col 1 states that ALL things are upheld maintain and exist by the power of Christ - that includes angels. They are not little-gods with life in themselves. Christ said that He alone that god-like attribute not angels. And in 1Tim 6 - "God ALONE posses immortality". Angels are immortal in the sense that God is not willing that they die - and as Genesis 3 points out - access to the tree of life promotes life such that one does not die.

    Let's be serious.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Jun 24, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2013
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Now let's apply your logic to God who is also "spirit"

    1. God can be invisible - that does not mean He cannot also choose to be visible

    2. God absolutely have physical characteristics such as "eyes" "right hand" "arm" "face" chicken "wings" etc. according to Scripture. God met with Abraham and had physical attributes that cannot be denied as Physical

    Bob, you are an excellent candidate for Mormonism and their doctrine of God. Have you ever been introduced to the term "anthropomorphisms"????
     
  20. TrevorL

    TrevorL
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    Greetings BobRyan and greetings again The Biblicist,

    I am not sure if what you have stated here is directed at what I have stated. I agree with some of the above, except for the following:
    1. I do not believe that angels have wings as depicted in SDA literature. I believe cherubim and seraphim have wings.
    2. I believe it was a Name bearing angel together with two other angels that appeared to Abraham.
    3. I am not sure of why you say “little-gods with life within themselves”. I believe that the Angels and Judges were given the title “elohim” because they represented God. They were not independent deities.
    4. I believe that Angels have God-like attributes. Would you like some verses that describe some of these? eg appearance like lightning.
    5. I believe that the angels have immortality. God alone is the source of immortality. God the Father, Jesus the Son of God and the Angels of God are the only beings now with immortality. The dictionary definition of "mortal" is "subject to death".
    6. Yes, let’s be serious. (Perhaps the above shows how easy two different environments produces different thinking and conclusions.)

    On the theme of in the image and likeness of God I would like to add the thought that David manifested in part this quality as he is described as a man after God’s own heart.
    1 Samuel 13:14 (KJV): But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee.
    Acts 13:22 (KJV): And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.


    Also Genesis speaks of man having dominion, and David speaks of this in Psalm 8 showing that this will ultimately fulfilled in Jesus.
    Psalm 8:4-8 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

    What I find interesting concerning David is that he typically fulfilled the future role of Jesus when he was given the kingdom. I also believe that his defeat of Goliath is a microcosm of this picture, when he defeated the man of sin in his day, and the kingdom of God on earth was then open to him. Unfortunately he had to contend with Saul and others, and overcome the weakness of his own flesh. I believe Psalm 8 was written at the time when David defeated Goliath.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     

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