Male submission to women

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Gina B, Nov 4, 2004.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    16,944
    Likes Received:
    1
    Time to turn this puppy around for once. ;)

    EPH 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

    1PET 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

    What does the word "submit" mean in these verses? Men, who do you submit to? Who are you subject to? Aren't all believers being spoken to here?
    Men, do you submit to your wives? Other believers?
    If not, what's your excuse for not doing so?
    Answer me. NOW. :D
    Gina
     
  2. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus submitted himself to us. He served us. He washed his disciples' feet. He ultimately died on the cross for us, the greatest act of submission and service.

    I submit to Christ, and I submit to my Christian community. When I marry, I will submit myself to my spouse, as I submit to Christ. I will also love her, as Christ loves the Church. I will also be her head, and willl be her guide and strength. I will also be one flesh with her. The two of us will be one. And the head of our house will be Christ Jesus.

    All of this is scriptural. All of this is ordained by God. And, all of this is required of me.
     
  3. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,659
    Likes Received:
    189
    The same thing it means when Paul tells wives to submit to their husbands. It is taking on the attitude of Christ as Paul described in Phillipians 2:

    Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.

    Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.


    To my fiancée and other believers. I also submit to earthly authorities.

    See above. :D

    Yes, although it seems most so-called “conservative” believers tend to focus on keeping women in “their place” instead of understanding the teaching of Christ (and varied practical applications of Christ’s teaching by Paul) on submission in context.

    If we are believers, it is the command of Christ. [​IMG]
     
  4. aefting

    aefting
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2002
    Messages:
    874
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't have a problem (theologically, at least) with putting my wife first, serving her, thinking more highly of her, showing deference to her, loving her, etc. But the NT word submission means to arrange oneself under another's authority. The Bible says that wives are to arrange themselves under their husband's authority, not the other way around.

    Eph. 5:21 introduces a section that teaches how we are to submit to one another -- wives submit to husbands, servants to masters, and children to parents. Parents are not to submit to their children; masters are not to submit to their servants; and husbands are not to submit to their wives -- all such would be contrary to the express commands of Scripture.

    Andy
     
  5. Elnora

    Elnora
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2001
    Messages:
    8,260
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG]

    Oh, it's Gina....

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Many believe that "mutual submission" as mentioned in Eph 5 (Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ) is then CLARIFIED in the next verse that speak of Husbands loving and wives submitting.

    Others make a clear distinction to verse 21 as the END of details about conduct in the church with "submission to one another" and then a new paragraph in verse 22 moving on to the marriage (and in 6:1 on to children).

    I agree with them.
     
  7. aefting

    aefting
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2002
    Messages:
    874
    Likes Received:
    0
    The word for submit does not occur in verse 22, it is understood from verse 21. That would seem to indicate that verse 21 functions as the overall principle from which Paul derives his examples that follow.


    Andy
     
  8. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,659
    Likes Received:
    189
    As always, Dr. Bob shows the quality of his character by mentioning both major views fairly and without malice. [​IMG]

    Yes. That’s the way I understand the scripture.

    And that is precisely why I believe that way… the text demands it.

    In Ephesians 5-6, Paul quotes the household codes of order in pagan society and then stresses the distinct way that Christians should live.

    (1) Yes, wives should be submissive to their husbands, but the Christian husbands have a greater responsibility to follow the example of Christ and lay down their lives for their wives (v. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her).

    (2) Children should obey (submit) to their parents, but Christian parents are obligated not to provoke their children to wrath (6:4). The parents submit themselves to the legitimate needs of their children.

    (3) Slaves are to obey their masters, but Christian masters are obligated to treat look after the best interests of their slaves, treat them as equals (v.9 “there is no partiality” with God) and serve them! (see verse 6:9, obligating masters to treat their slaves the same way the slaves are supposed to serve their masters. This, of course, undermines slavery and turns the master/slave relationship into a partnership. No wonder Paul wrote Philemon and asked him to release his slave for the ministry of God.)

    Many people look at Ephesians 5-6 and ask the question, "Who is in charge?"

    But Christians, who know that Christ has taught by word and example that He and His followers are to be servants of all, should read Ephesians 5-6 and ask, "How should I serve others in my relationships?"
     
  9. aefting

    aefting
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2002
    Messages:
    874
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would not have a problem with this terminology except for the fact that, in this context, I believe we ought to limit the English word, submit, to the semantic range of the underlying Greek. Is is proper to expand the definition of hupotasso beyond its Biblical usage?

    Andy
     
  10. freeatlast

    freeatlast
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes men do have to submit. However the type of submission is different then from that of a wife to a husband. She is called to submit to him in everything even as unto the Lord. His subm,ission is to dewny himself as Chrsit denyied Himself for the church, but he remains the head and she the follower. There is not two heads in the family. As one preacher says anything with no head is dead and anything with two heads is a freak. So the man is being submited to from the wife and the husband is submitting by not living for his own desires but for hers. He is the sacrafice and she is the reward.
     
  11. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    Exactly!
     
  12. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with the same people Bob does ...

    However, we should note that the word for "submit" never means "among equals." It is always used of a hierarchical relationship of someone submitting to one with authority over him/her.
     
  13. Gina B

    Gina B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    16,944
    Likes Received:
    1
    freeatlast, can you show me why you believe the word "submit" changes meaning depending on who it's talking to?
    Gina
     
  14. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Agree with Freeatlast... Different type of submission here.

    The Complutensian edition, and the Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read, "in the fear of Christ"; who is the head of the church, and King of saints, and as such to be feared and reverenced; and for his sake there should be a submission to one another; the Syriac version reads, in the love of Christ, which should constrain the saints to this duty.


    John Gill explains: Submitting yourselves one to another…
    Which may be understood either in a political sense, of giving honour, obedience, and tribute, to civil magistrates, since they are set up by God for the good of men, and it is for the credit of religion for the saints to submit to them; or in an economical sense; thus the wife should be subject to the husband, children to their parents, and servants to their masters, which several things are afterwards insisted on, as explanative of this rule; or in an ecclesiastic sense, so the Ethiopic version renders it, "subject yourselves to your brethren": thus members of churches should be subject to their pastors, not in the same sense as they are to Christ, the head, nor are they obliged to believe or do everything they say, right or wrong; yet honour and esteem are due to them, and submission and obedience should be yielded to their doctrines, precepts, and exhortations, when they are agreeably to the word of God; since God has set them in the highest place in the church, called them to the highest service, and most honourable work, and bestowed on them the greatest gifts; the younger members should also submit to the elder, and the minority to the majority; one member should submit to another, to the superior judgment of another, and to the weakness of another, and to the admonitions of others, and so as to perform all offices of love: and the manner in which this duty is to be performed, is in the fear of God.

    Baker's Evangelical Dictionary says:

    If people do not treat each other with respect, their prayers may be hindered (1 Peter 3:7). If a woman's outward appearance reflects gentleness and submission to her husband, it may win him to Christ (1 Peter 3:1-6). The appearance of women who take part in the service should show respect to required social customs. Use of head coverings enhanced the acceptance of a woman's contribution to the service.

    Paul based his view about the woman's place in the authority continuum on Genesis 2:18-24. Here the woman is formed from man's side in response to a need for companionship and help. She is not formed from dust but was taken from Adam. As a suitable helper she makes man complete.

    Woman reflects the glory of God in man so that both bear the image of God (Gen 1:26-27). As a suitable complement to the man, a noble wife is his crown (Prov 12:4). Genesis Rabbah, an ancient Jewish commentary, stated her husband is adorned by her. Her pleasures, beauties, and charms are for her husband alone (Prov 5:17). She is covered as a sign that she is accessible to none but him.

    Headship of Husbands. Headship does not mean that man is an unlimited monarch. He is to cherish and nurture his wife as his own body (Eph 5:28). He may not deprive her of what she needs for her happiness and well-being (1 Cor 7:3). He must be understanding, considerate, and respectful of her as a joint heir of life (1 Peter 3:7). His love for her is more than physical. It must be the same kind of sacrificial love Christ has for the church
     
  15. williemakeit

    williemakeit
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    393
    Likes Received:
    0
    With me, it is sort like what an old Pastor use to share with me....

    There have been many times that I have had my wife on her knees begging.....


    for me to come out from under the bed and fight like a man.


    Just kidding, of course. I respect my wife in so many ways, and fully consider her an equal partner. I am also proud of how she is respected and admired by others. She is definately a Proverbs 31 woman.
     
  16. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    Quoted from Commander Worf(of Star Trek:The Next Generation acclaim) in reply to The Borg's statement that the Klingon's will be assimulated

    "The Klingon Empire will NEVER yield!!!!"
     
  17. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    2,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    But seriously, that's exactly the kind of attitude many men have. They don't "get" the difference between dictatorship and Christ-like love.
     
  18. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    I agree. Isn't submission also humility? How can a husband love his wife without honoring her and putting her ahead of himself just as Christ did for us as stated in Phil. 2:3-7, "Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men."

    We are to count others as more imnportnat than ourselves. If everyone would do that leadership would never be a problem. Just imagine what the church and homes would look like.
     
  19. aefting

    aefting
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2002
    Messages:
    874
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is it? I think we are adding ideas to a word that do not belong to its definition. According to NT usage, submission is arranging oneself under another's authority. That may require humility but I do not believe it right to say that Christ "submitted" to us in His death on the cross.

    Andy
     
  20. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Godly men need to stop whining about what they think qualifies as submission, and start taking seriously their role of loving and headship.
     

Share This Page

Loading...