Male submission to women

I read the article and he did not deal with Eph. 5:21 being a transitional phrase in Greek. However I do agree with what he did say about being subject to one another. We are to be subject to one another. I just don't see how that would exclude me from being subject to everyone else including my wife.

But to imply the husband is an authority is simply not true. Christ is the authority. If the husband were the authority she would never have to think or even use her brain. I believe the idea of submission is not so much of an authority issue but of a willingly putting herself under her husband and letting him lead. A lady who does not do that will quickly kill a man's leadership. He will be ineffective.

Another reason I believe it is not an authority issue because there are some women who are better leaders than most men. The person who is the authority is the person who is most knowledgeable and qualified. However if that kind of a wife focused on authority it would clearly be her and her husband would never be the leader in their relationship.

In one church I pastored there was a lady who was an excellent leader in her field. But when she was around her husband she often was silent and honored her husband. It was great to see because we knew she was a better leader than he was. But her choice to honor him and let him lead helped him. It strengthened him. It gave him courage and boldness. We began to see him step out and do things we would not have seen him do before.

Gothard the advocate of the authority issue was a single man who taught the idea of authority. However he never married until just a few years ago. I spoke with some of his followers recently. He has changed his ideas since marrying.

I don't think anyone would disagree with scripture but the real understanding and definition of submission in a practical sense.

I have even seen some of those on the BB jokingly talk about their wives as answering the call of "Yes mam", etc. Then they talk about authority. If submission is an authority issue then why the Yes Mam attitude. Why roll over and play dead to your wives.

I would bet that Dr. Bob in a second would submit to his wife as an authority if he were in desperate need of medical attention. One time I was in a serious situation (my wife works in the medical profession) qand I did exactly what my wife told me to do. I submitted my self to her authority immediately.

The issue of submission of the wife is not because hthe husband is an authority but because God said it.

There are churches where the former pastor is attending the church he once pastored and a new pastor is there pastoring. Who is the authority and who is the pastor? Clearly the retired pastor would be the authority and the new pastor would be the pastor. But according to scripture the retired pastor is to submit himself to the new pastor.

Submission is about peace and order not about authority and superiority versus inferiority. It is for the sake of unity and not division. It is to strengthen the leadership and the body.

 

Oh, well, if a man can't answer that, it must mean he can be a dictator at home. .

Actually, it's rather sad that few men appear to genunely answer that question, and resort to being a dictator as a result.

 

[/QOUTE] But to imply the husband is an authority is simply not true. Christ is the authority. [/QOUTE]


Well then we have a problem huston, see it gives the man the head of the house like Christ is the head of the church. You are leaving out or ignoring scripture. I guess what you are saying is that the part of submitting to a husband was a mistake. Should skip that part and just obey Christ. Guess God was feeling a little wordy in eph. eh? Nah, it means just what it says, submit to the husband, God knew what He was saying. There is a line of authority here. Quit clearly.


[/QOUTE]In one church I pastored there was a lady who was an excellent leader in her field. But when she was around her husband she often was silent and honored her husband. It was great to see because we knew she was a better leader than he was. But her choice to honor him and let him lead helped him. It strengthened him. It gave him courage and boldness. We began to see him step out and do things we would not have seen him do before. [/QOUTE]

Aaahh we see God's plan at work. Either way it would work out. There is no problem with God's plan. He just knows best.


[/QOUTE] I have even seen some of those on the BB jokingly talk about their wives as answering the call of "Yes mam", etc. Then they talk about authority. If submission is an authority issue then why the Yes Mam attitude. Why roll over and play dead to your wives.[/QOUTE]

Not sure what you are saying here

[/QOUTE]I would bet that Dr. Bob in a second would submit to his wife as an authority if he were in desperate need of medical attention. One time I was in a serious situation (my wife works in the medical profession) qand I did exactly what my wife told me to do. I submitted my self to her authority immediately. [/QOUTE]

Yep but he has the right not too also, for it does not say for a man to submit to a wife. Where on the other hand the wife should submit it the husband tells her too.


[/QOUTE]The issue of submission of the wife is not because hthe husband is an authority but because God said it. [/QOUTE]

A hugh amen, a pt I have been making a thousand times on here. It is not for or too the husband. Likewise it is not against the husband to not submit, but against God. It dishonors His word. Although from reading your ealier post I am not sure you really have grasp that truth.

[/QOUTE]There are churches where the former pastor is attending the church he once pastored and a new pastor is there pastoring. Who is the authority and who is the pastor? Clearly the retired pastor would be the authority and the new pastor would be the pastor. But according to scripture the retired pastor is to submit himself to the new pastor. [/QOUTE]

Ah, what? If he is no longer the pastor then he is not the leader of that church. He is a lay person in the church at that time. The church has called a new pastor. He is the one they are to submit too. (of course that word really doesn't mean anything )

[/QOUTE] Submission is about peace and order not about authority and superiority versus inferiority. It is for the sake of unity and not division. It is to strengthen the leadership and the body. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Said that earlier cept that that peace is shattered when some chose to ignore the word of God because it upsets the flesh. Then peace becomes confusion and pride takes over. When some choose to set up their own authority and ignore God's line of authority. We must not submit to worldly pressures to get along. This would not even be an arguement 15 or so years ago but it is unpopular to preach the Bible litterly today. That includes submission (same as obedience) to God set authority!

[ November 08, 2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Timtoolman ]

 

No one is disagreeing with that point, TTM. What many are missing is that this is in addition to loving one another as Christ loves, giving yourselves to each other as Christ gave himself, and submitting to each other as to Christ.

To fail to include all of these aspects is to leave out and ignore scripture. Some will have us believe that it's better to ignore scripture and be considered macho, that to include all scripture and be considered a wimp.

Yes, wives are to submit to the husband's spiritual authority. When a husband leads spritually, then submit to his spiritual leadership in all things. This is biblical submission of a wife. Biblical submission of a wife is NOT to do whatever the husband tells you to do.

 

[/QUOTE][/qb]
No one is disagreeing with that point, TTM. What many are missing is that this is in addition to loving one another as Christ loves, giving yourselves to each other as Christ gave himself, and submitting to each other as to Christ.[/QOUTE]

Well it seems that Christ kept HIs commitment, even though we didn't love or submit to Him. The principle is still the same. Christ obligation was to the Father. Ours is also, wife, husband, child. It is to the Father. I need to know where in scriptures anyone is excused from his commitment because the other party failed to follow God's commands. No, I charge that we are to live a godly life (a life of following the teachings or instructions of God)regardless of what others do. They are accountable. If my neighbor does not love me does that excuse me? If my government condones things that are unbiblical does that excuse me from obeying? Do people who follow a pastor who feel he should build a bigger church instead of a christian school excuse them from following that pastor? no, nade and nope. There is a principle here that our obiligations are still in effect regardless of what sinners do....unless it is against God's word.



[/QUOTE]
To fail to include all of these aspects is to leave out and ignore scripture. Some will have us believe that it's better to ignore scripture and be considered macho, that to include all scripture and be considered a wimp.[/QOUTE]

I have not made that charge. I have said it is easier to get along with society and culture then to stand up for the word of God. Esp. in this issue. I stand by that.

[/QUOTE][/qb]
Yes, wives are to submit to the husband's spiritual authority. When a husband leads spritually, then submit to his spiritual leadership in all things. This is biblical submission of a wife. Biblical submission of a wife is NOT to do whatever the husband tells you to do. [/QB][/QUOTE]

That needs to be proven scriptually. Did not Sarah call her husband lord? You have to show me where we are excuse as I explained above, from our responisbility because others are not living up to theirs. That principal is not there. I have explain how God in His word uses people who follow Him despite what the world says and He is glorified. Did not joeseph remain obediant to the Lord inspite of the injustices done to him. What was the outcome....His name was known throughout Eygpt.
Wives have a great oppertunity to do the same by trusting God's word and obeying Him in this manner. If a husband is not saved or his walk is not right you can be sure digging in her heels and rebelling will not bring change.
And the opposite is true for the men too. If they have a wife who is not submitting he too is too continue to love and give himself to her. I hold to the same on both sides of the fence.

In Christ,
Tim

 

[

Actually, it's rather sad that few men appear to genunely answer that question, and resort to being a dictator as a result. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Thats rather cold John. You mean that all the men on here who disagree with you just want to be tyrants? My stance is it is bible, I cannot back away from it. Not that I am a controll freak. I actually don't want the headship alot of times. Because with it comes the accountablity! Kidding bout the cold part, John.

Blessing.
Tim

 

Know what would be nice, chat room here. Would be nice to talk to people live.

Tim

I know, off thread. I am rebelling.

 

What's your point? I never said that the wife can pick and choose when to submit. I said that scriptural submission does not equate to just "doing what the husband tell you to".

I don't think I've disagreed with you on that issue. However, the flip side of that is that many well-meaning Christians will view a husband who isn't a "dictator" to be a wimp, despite the fact that a husband's spiritual headship has nothing to do with dictatorship.

I think I've made my point with scriptural context adequately. You keep bringing up Sarah as though all woman have to follow suit. That's akin to saying that if a woman has Solom as his wife, then she must scripturally put up with his polygamy and fornication. The example of Sarah is a specific context, not a blanket "do whatever your husband says" edict.

I haven't mentioned the salvific condition of either spouse at all.

I think I've already said that I agree with you on this point.

No, I mean that men who think that headship gives them authority to tell be dictators to their spouses are tyrants.

 

I think Peter T. O'Brien, not exactly a flaming Fundamental Baptist, sums up my understanding of this topic pretty well in his Pillar NT Commentary on Ephesians:

Andy

 

For those who believe that the children should always obey and the wife always submit: Do you believe that if the man of the home tells the wife to steal something she should? If the man of the home tells the children to steal something should they?

 

Of course not. We've repeatedly stated that the wife should submit to (obey) her husband unless it breaks God's law, which includes breaking the law in general.

Diane

 

I agree with Diane.

Andy

 

Leave it to John to insert the absurd absolute logic of a person being a dictator if he isn't one who practices mutual submission.

Where is BB? BB, where are you? Are you still trying to find mutual submission within the Godhead?

 

I didn't say that. I said that a husband who acts like a dictator is not pracicing scriptural headship, and that scriptural submission does not refer to a wife being "told what to do".

As far as mutual submission, yes, this is required of both spouses if they are to be one flesh, but it does not negate scriptural headship and submission.

 

Actually John, I am going to have to interject Scripture into your little theory again.

Submission existed in the creation account of Adam and Eve, prior to sin. Submission is not a result of sin, but God's decree.

The command to leave father and mother and be joined as one also was in the creation account.

THEREFORE:

Submission by the wife to the husband was God's decree for a one-flesh relationship. John, it isn't that I want to disagree with you. It is just that I don't want to be wrong. Sorry.

It is the cowardly mutual submission folk who are splintering marriages because of the added responsibility they put on the wife because they don't (can't) man up.

 

Two threads re submission have been started by women, and 3 threads on submission have been started by men.

You are also saying that those of us who disagree with what you say submission means are "in rebellion to God." That's a pretty extreme statement and I strongly object.

I do not rebel against God or his word just because I disagree with how you two may be interpreting what it means to be in submission.

I assume you agree a woman should not submit if her husband tells her to have an abortion or to steal something. That would mean 1) she must be thinking on her own and know God's word and want to obey it in order to decide that; and 2)her allegiance is to God over her husband.

Do you agree?

 

I guess it shouldn't surprise anyone that those who make such claims about being bold are in reality cowards on the inside. I wonder what the Bible says about those who boast so much?

It's clear some haven't managed very many people or lived very long. Many of those so called men who appear courageous on the outside are really whimps and cowards on the inside. But you can't tell them that because they can't see it because their focus is upon themselves.

At the last church I pastored some of those cowards in the SBC would not come and help me deal with some of the deacons who insisited that the Mormon bishop was a Christian and let him preach. Just imagine some of those SBC folks at the state and local level who just refused to help me all in the name of autonomous churches. So I had to stand up to them alone. Oh but the cowards were around secretly telling me that if I needed any help after I left to just ask them. So I know their type well. Just like an empty bag. It never fails an empty bag makes the most noise.

 

gb, at least you aren't retreating from the issues and opting to whine about your deacon issues.