Man as spiritually mature as Christ.

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by Catalyst, Jul 10, 2012.

  1. Catalyst

    Catalyst
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    It may be that I'm too fundamental and take God's word too by the book. So if I'm not welcome/qualified/whatever please tell me. I enjoy the challenging conversations, but I don't want to violate the safety of a haven.

    Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

    Jesus the Christ, the head of the church, who has visited the heavens,
    Made some to be apostles, teachers, etc..(the leaders of the Church) to lead the people for works of service.

    The job of the Church is to lead the people in their works.
    Until they become a perfect man (in most translations) ((Word Telioos means mature in today's english, perfect was good in the 1600 meaning of the word, not today)
    So through works we reach Xian maturity. Not through theology.
    Through those works, and maturity we will gain knowledge of Christ, and Unity.
    How much are we to be matured?
    If Christ's maturity was measured in a glass, we'd be the same size glass.
    If it was filled with 8 ounces, ours would have the same 8 ounce amount.
    And in case there was any doubt that Paul met as spiritually mature as Christ was, he says to the fullness of Christ.

    This verse usually tosses people off with the use of the word Perfect where Mature is above. But hopefully reading it this way, with mature, will avoid that dilemma.

    So, my interpretation is how it is written, with no changes, and no forcing other thoughts to interfere with it's words.

    So I've been called a heretic, because my view wasn't the fundamental view. But in my view, I'm more fundamental than the fundamentals, because I don't have to change the words to suit my view.

    So, does my interpretation aggravate you, or make sense?
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    remember that we have BEEN made complete in Christ, that we have ALREADY passed overf rom death to life, so spiritual maturity is a process that starts once saved, but need to be a babe in christ first!
     
  3. Catalyst

    Catalyst
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    Well I'm with you on the starts once saved. But the Ephesians verse shows it's to be finished in this life. And IF yuou are complete in Christ, then what you said is true. However if you still sin, you don't yet know Him and haven't met Him. 1 john 3:6.

    If you are in Him, you can have no darkness in you. NOT he would blind out the darkness, but there is no darkness in you. I'm frankly, not there yet. 1 john chapter 1, and 2:8.

    So I freely admit I'm not yet where I need to be.
    And I freely trust Him to do what He said will be done.
    But the first time I really broke the verse above down, it made me angry. It was very different from what I was taught. It was at first frightening, then angrifying, then resolved, then made hope for even more.
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    talking about different things! we are right now fully justified before God, and the father sees us already seated in the heavionlys in/with Christ!

    We also are growing into maturity/image of jesus, by the work of the Holy spirit in and thru us...

    We will be fully as jesus once gloried with him at either rapture/second Coming!
     
  5. Van

    Van
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    Does a born again Christian Sin? If we say we do not sin, we are not Christian, 1 John 1:8. But if we sin, we do not abide in Christ, 1 John 3:6.

    The solution to this problem is we are made perfect, faultless, without sin, when we are regenerated in Christ. Therefore when we sin, and we do and need to recognize it and repent, confess and strive to stop doing it, our sinful actions are not sin because they are covered, paid for, by Christ, hence they do not result in separation.

    But does this mean we are to sin so grace may abound? May it never be.

    Which brings us to our passage, Ephesians 4:9-16. Here is the text (NASB) Notice that the idea is not our perfection in Christ, i.e. 1 John 3:6, but rather our need to curtail sinful behavior and become more Christ-like, i.e. 1 John 1:8. This occurs during the period from when we are born again, until Christ comes or we physically die, and is commonly called "progressive sanctification."

    "9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?

    10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

    11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

    12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

    13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

    14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

    15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

    16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love."

    Paul discusses this topic of progress sanctification again in 1 Thessalonians 4:1-8.
     
  6. Catalyst

    Catalyst
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    Ok, back up. So you think as Paul put in Eph 4 that we are to become as mature as Christ was, that we will still sin? Does that mean HE sinned as well? Or that Paul was wrong in what he wrote? Because if Paul was wrong, so was John who said the same thing with different words.

    Secondly, 1:8 doesn't say if you sin you aren't Xian. It doesn't say anything remotely close to that. It says everyone has sinned. We all have sinned (and fallen short of the Glory of God) No where in context, nor verbiage does it say we will sin forever. No where. I'd love to see any arguments that say other wise, but there are none yet that will make that claim that I have heard.

    The Greek tense/word/verbiage in 1 john 3:6 and 3:9 does not allow for the "you can sin but are forgiven for it, so it doesn't measure as sin." That's an impossible reach gramatically. In fact, literally, after the conjunction in 3:6 it says, CAN NOT SIN. Period. Which would better read CAN NOT SIN ANYMORE, because of the tense. That's not my opinion, it's the opinion of any Greek Lexicon, dictionary, blah blah blah.

    I'd like to see the argument for ANY way you can discern that it means you won't carry the penalty of sin, in those verses, VS the literal interpretation that you can not sin anymore.

    BUT, that's a different thread, I'd rather you tell me about Ephesians Four how you can SIN and be as spiritually mature as Jesus. That's intriguing to me.

    And no one has said that at all, on this we agree! :)

    I see nothing in there about curtailing sins. Nothing. No words even remotely get close to making that claim. There is nothing in the context to suggest that either, that I can see. So how, other than adding that "curtail sinful behavior" makes your theological belief fit with the words, do you get there? As best I can tell, you have to add to, change, take away words to make that claim!

    SHOW me anywhere in the BIBLE that says you will die until you sin. I'll agree with you, sanctification is a progressive thing, but that race has an end. Paul referred to the "perfect" people as the meat eaters, vs milk. And in Phil 3 said he and others were perfect, as well as wrote he was to present the Church people as Perfect (meaning finished/mature, right?) to Christ when he returned. Everything Paul says your adding the "unfinished" picture to the verse is not accurate.
    In fact JOHN in 1 John 1 says him and others are no longer sinning. If you read the scripture and study it, it's pretty blazen. John says to be in fellowship with God and His Son, you must walk in the light AS HE DOES. And if you are in the Light as He is, there is no darkness in Him. The darkness needs to be removed before you are in fellowship. John was in fellowship those he wrote to were not. John's comments in 3:6 therefore, are the same as 1 john 1, just different words. If you still sin, you don't know Him and haven't met Him. (errrr aren't in fellowship with Him.)

    So, take it up with JOHN, apparently he wasn't wise enough to figure out he was wrong on what he wrote.

    And I know this is foreign to you, I don't mean that negatively, but I'm sure it's the first time you have heard this argument. So, your instinct is going to be to just ignore it and tell me how I'm wrong.

    But I've shown you how the scripture says what I claim. If you say it doesn't, then show me where I'm wrong, or you'll just be making proclamations against scripture. And I'm going to side with scripture over you everytime. (Although it's clear you think and are worth listening to.)

     
  7. Catalyst

    Catalyst
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    Who told you justification was the same this as maturation? You should shoot them. Justification is atonement, or "being freed from sin", in Romans 6:22. Notice in Rom 6:22 that the last step, or the culmination of things that lead to SANCTIFICATION happen long after atonement.

    The people in 1 john that wrote the letter were in fellowship with God. Those that received the letter were NOT in fellowship with God. That's why John wrote the letter. To help them be in fellowship with him and his coterie, who were in fellowship with GOD and the Son.

    YES we agree here too. Why do you think the Holy Spirit can't finish the work it starts in you? All of scripture points to it being before you die, IF you continue to run the race. But Paul writes if the SPIRIT is inside of you, you are no longer in the flesh. You are going to say, "blah blah we are in the flesh til we die blah blah" but romans 8:9 says that's a damned lie. (damned because of what scripture says to changing it's words.) He also writes if you walk by the Spirit you can't give into temptations of the flesh.

    So, tell me, again, how, if the Spirit is maturing you, you could fall out, if He's in charge and you obey Him, rom 8:5. And the sinful nature is gone, romans 8:9/col 2:11, and the Spirit of God is the one doing the works and empowering your walk? Please, show me how each of those verses do not say what they say. Make sure your explanation matches up with the words in the scripture, too. No adding words, like strive, or such...

    Show me this last part, ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE. It does NOT EXIST ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE, and the direct opposite is very bluntly and plainly stated.

    Do you guys not see a problem with just ignoring the words of scripture to sayit means something else? I believe this is what you've been taught, not what you studied and discerned solely on your own. (not that I think you incapable, the opposite is my belief, but that it's an exact representation of Theisen, Gruden, etc... systematic theology books.) I'd like you to show me how my understanding of the verses is impossible. And if you admit that my view is POSSIBLE, then show me why it's improbable.

    bd
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Apostle john said that we will be as jesus at His second coming, when we shall put on immortality, take on glorifed bodies...

    John also was telling us that Christians will /can still sin, and that confession to god retores the broken fellowship with God...

    Gnostics and others deny that we can ever sin again...

    No sinless perfection state ataainable in this life, as we strive to become more like jesus, but will still be able to sin... Sinning less and less, but still sinning until with Christ!
     
  9. Van

    Van
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    This is not starting our well. Jesus was sinless. Please to not suggest my position deviates from scripture.

    Paul was not wrong, his very words were inspired by our perfect God.

    Of course not, and neither did I. Are you incapable of reading or are you deliberating misrepresenting my position? It says if we say we do not sin, the truth is not in us. Therefore if we say we do not sin, we are not Christian.
    Why would you post the opposite of what I said. Strike one, sir.

    And I did not say that. Therefore strike two.

    It says what it says.

    "No one who abides in Him sins." The only solution is in Christ our sinful actions are not counted as sin.

    For you to claim you do not sin, means the truth is not in you. But to claim a born again Christian's thoughts and actions are counted as sin is also unbiblical.

    Not what I said, strike three. You are obviously misrepresenting my views to create strawmen to knock down.

    Well, as we grow up to the measure of the [sinless] stature of Christ, we would curtail our sins. This is not rocket science.

    Strike four. I said we will continue to do sinful acts until we die, not your reversal of what I said.

    Again, we are spiritually in Christ and therefore since there is no darkness in Him at all, there is no darkness in our spiritual being. We are in fellowship with Christ from the moment God puts us in Christ, we are in Him and He is in us, we know Him and He knows us. We may enter heaven as one escaping from a fire, bringing little or no rewards with us, but we enter heaven.

    If you want to address what I said, your response will be appreciated. If you just want to claim I said the opposite of what I said, save yourself the effort.
     
    #9 Van, Jul 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2012

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