I usually read discussions and don't take much time to butt in but something was said in another thread that I can't ignore. The idea that "man can be left to himself". Basically, it has to do with the whole idea of "total depravity". This is the problem. When I hear it said, it sounds like someone is saying that God, as if he was in a room with you, can walk out, shut the door, and leave you by yourself. I don't get it! God is omnipresent! No one can go anywhere or be anywhere and God is not there! He also sustains everything. The entire universe, heaven, earth, and even hell cannot exist and/or continue without His sustaining hand. So how in the world can it be suggested that a man can be "left to himself"? I know Romans 1 will be thrown out here with a host of other verses. So first, I already know what they say. Second, I believe your view of those verses depends upon a lot of other baggage (i.e. your preconcieved ideas, assumptions, and fundamental convictions about "who God is"). Anyone interested in having this discussion?