Man left to himself?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by 4study, Aug 31, 2005.

  1. 4study

    4study
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    I usually read discussions and don't take much time to butt in but something was said in another thread that I can't ignore. The idea that "man can be left to himself". Basically, it has to do with the whole idea of "total depravity".

    This is the problem. When I hear it said, it sounds like someone is saying that God, as if he was in a room with you, can walk out, shut the door, and leave you by yourself.

    I don't get it! God is omnipresent! No one can go anywhere or be anywhere and God is not there! He also sustains everything. The entire universe, heaven, earth, and even hell cannot exist and/or continue without His sustaining hand. So how in the world can it be suggested that a man can be "left to himself"?

    I know Romans 1 will be thrown out here with a host of other verses. So first, I already know what they say. Second, I believe your view of those verses depends upon a lot of other baggage (i.e. your preconcieved ideas, assumptions, and fundamental convictions about "who God is").

    Anyone interested in having this discussion?
     
  2. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi 4study;
    Well put God is everywhere.
    I also wonder where the Calvinist mind comes up with the idea that non-Calvinst thinks that man is ever left to alone. No one can become a Christian unless they first know who Christ is. The sinner cannot be convicted of his sins unless they are worked on by the Holy Spirit. Yet still this does not mean they would have to be regenerated first. If this were so why would so many be convicted and still reject Christ.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  3. 4study

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    No one interested? :(
     
  4. billwald

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    God can save anyone by application of Christ's sacrifice. Anyone.
     
  5. 4study

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    billwald,

    I have no idea if your post is in response to my questions, an addition to them, or something completely off subject. Care to explain?
     
  6. whatever

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    When we say "left to himself" we do not mean that God physically goes somewhere else and leaves man alone where he is. We mean that man would never think first about turning to God, so God has to act first. Like Paul said, "as it is written: 'None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God.'"
     
  7. 4study

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    whatever,

    I know you don't mean that God physically goes somewhere else. That can't happen anyway.

    Even Adam would never "think first" about God. No one has ever done that and no one ever will. So what's the point of even talking about it? Why even say "if man is left to himself", then this, that, and the other, if it can't ever happen? Romans 3:10,11, that you quote, is not even about "man left to himself". So the idea that God "leaves some to themselves", is a contradiction. It just plain CAN'T HAPPEN.
     
  8. whatever

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    Sure it can. "Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever!" See also Acts 7:42.
     
  9. 4study

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    whatever,

    When it says "God gave them up", etc. ,etc., it doesn't mean God left them alone, to themselves, closing the door to let them go on their merry wicked way. He NEVER closes the door. And I guess that's my point. Conviction, no matter how bad things get, never ceases to be in action. If God is, conviction is there! Man is never "left to himself".
     
  10. whatever

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    Then what does "God gave them up" mean?
     
  11. philg

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    Most would agree that God must act first
     
  12. philg

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    The question is when did God give them up? Was it some time back in eternity past when he did not choose them or did he give them up becasue they rejected the truth?

    The scripture is clear about the following:
    1:19
    Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    1:20
    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    1:21
    Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    God showed them
    It was manifest in them
    The understood
    The had clearly seen
    They knew God

    but:
    1:18
    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

    They held the truth in unrigheousness
     
  13. 4study

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    whatever,

    I think it means many different things when you consider the context. In Romans 1, one of the ideas is that God allowed them to continue working out wickedness. To the full extent. Yet they chose to do this. No one forced them and it wasn't due to "human nature".
     
  14. philg

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    I think it means many different things when you consider the context. In Romans 1, one of the ideas is that God allowed them to continue working out wickedness. To the full extent. Yet they chose to do this. No one forced them and it wasn't due to "human nature". </font>[/QUOTE]When God gives someone up it is after the have become and apostate and rejected the truth. Once this happens they become blinded to the truth
     
  15. 4study

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    philg,

    I don't agree with that but at any rate, saying someone is "blinded to the truth" is different from saying they are "left to themselves". If someone chooses to reject the truth, it doesn't mean God says "see you later" and slams the door on them. They are choosing to ignore God. God is not ignoring them.
     
  16. philg

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    I don't agree with that but at any rate, saying someone is "blinded to the truth" is different from saying they are "left to themselves". If someone chooses to reject the truth, it doesn't mean God says "see you later" and slams the door on them. They are choosing to ignore God. God is not ignoring them. </font>[/QUOTE]:11
    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    2:12
    That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness2 thess 2:11-12

    6:4
    For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

    6:5
    And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    6:6
    If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    hebrews 6:4-6

    All men have a chance but if a man rejects long enough God gives them up.

    6:3
    And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years gen 6:3
     
  17. 4study

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    philg,

    I'll respond to your last post in a little bit. Have to be away from the computer for the next hour or so. Thanks.
     
  18. whatever

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    I think it means many different things when you consider the context. In Romans 1, one of the ideas is that God allowed them to continue working out wickedness. To the full extent. Yet they chose to do this. No one forced them and it wasn't due to "human nature". </font>[/QUOTE]Who said it was forced? I think you are arguing against something else but you haven't yet said what.
     
  19. 4study

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    philg,

    2Thess 2:11-12. Yep, because they choose to have “pleasure in unrighteousness”. Yet that does not mean God has “left them to themselves”.

    Heb.6:4-6. This scripture brings out too many other questions to discuss it here. Suffice it to say I don’t believe it applies to what we’re talking about.

    Gen.6:3. Yep, there’s a day of judgment. And God strives with man all the way up until the moment of judgment comes.

    That’s the issue here. I don’t understand why you’re saying “God gives them up”. Those words don’t mean that He picks up His bags and says “so long”. God does not vanish from the lives of those who choose to reject Him.
     
  20. philg

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    That’s the issue here. I don’t understand why you’re saying “God gives them up”. Those words don’t mean that He picks up His bags and says “so long”. God does not vanish from the lives of those who choose to reject Him. </font>[/QUOTE]Once they become apostate they no longer have a chance to be saved. hebrews 6:4-6
     

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