Mancow Waterboarded

How can his commands not apply to government also. Governments are made up of people also. People are responsible to Christ for their actions toward others.

You are also taking a very liberal intepretation of scripture. So do not tell me you are a theological conservative. A theological liberal tries to make scripture say what he/she wants it to say ... rationalize it to fit their views. And that is exactly what you are doing ... saying, "Oh, no scripture does not apply here. Christ never said, A command I give you that ye, except for when you are working for the government ..............., etc.

 

I doubt that Sean Hannity would last even that long - which is probably why he won't follow through on his offer to allow himself to be tortured by being waterboarded.

 

I just call it like I see LE. No need to start another thread as I was just trying to help folks in this one get a grasp on what kind of psychological self manipulating gymnastics are necessary in this day and age to be considered good Christian/conservative/patriotic americans.

 

You are correct in your statement. The conservatives have become very liberal in their interpretations of Christ's commands on how we treat others. Christ's commands are hard to live, but they are his commands. To try to rationalize them by attempting to put them in safe piegonholes is to refuse to accept his teachings, and thus in the last analysis refuse to really give our all to him.

Folks need to decide if they will follow Christ and pay the price, or follow the wisdom of the world and not follow Christ's teachings. The wisdom of the world says torture, killing our enemies, make animals of them so we will not feel bad when they die.

Conservatives love to denounce the secular, but torture, killing, etc. is secularity at its worst.

 

The Morality of Torture

A post by Laurence Vance: " A reader of my latest article on torture, suggests that I change my opening line from "Everyone follows some sort of a moral code, even atheists" to "Everyone follows some sort of a moral code, even Christians."

With all the Christian support for torture that I see, I'm inclined to agree with him. How sad. "

- www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/026905.html

Here is his article link:

www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance172.html

 

The support of torture is definitely not within the Christian worldview.

 

Pretty good article Ken but I'm afraid today's good Christian/conservative/patriotic americans have been so thoroughly conditioned by the modern warfare state's endless red white and blue "Goebbelist" propaganda that it's too late for them to change their minds now. Looks like the salt has lost it's savor.

 

From Mr. Vance's article - something that those who support the use of the waterboarding method of torture may not have considered:

"Just as someone might be willing to torture anyone and everyone if they thought the lives of their loved ones were in imminent danger, so anyone and everyone undergoing torture might be willing to admit to anything to get the torture to stop."

 

They've considered it alright Ken they just don't care to admit it. Doesn't fit into their endless warfare state propaganda induced paradigm that's all.

 

It has been known for a long time that torture does not give good intelligence. If it was so great why did they have to waterboard the one fellow over 200 times? He must be a tough guy.

You are right. They simply will not admit they were wrong and that they lowered their [the American standards] to the level of terrorists.

 

He's either a real tough guy or he confessed to doing 199 things he couldn't have possibly done.

 

Her reply was as close to topic as any of yours. She appeals to the contrast between care for the unborn and innocent life amounting to millions being killed, and your defense of the rights of 3 or so thugs who are alleged to have been tortured.... but are identified as terrorists and criminals.

I have the right as much as you, to call myself by whatever I choose to..... and your calling me names or debasing me because of labels, doesn't make you right!

You have certainly done nothing to disprove my ascertions! The references you make to scripture are only phrases.... not complete verses.... you neither cite the verses.... nor do you present the context.... yet I'm supposed to believe you. In fact, where does Jesus address war at all?

Until you show that proof.... you cannot say that he made a judgement, either permitting or prohibiting war.

As to the last sentence in your quote above..... it is a false and unjust characterization of what I said (which is captured in quotes below). You are dishonest in your opinion....and opinion is all it is! In the form of good debate.... and in the form of Christian love... you should be more careful to deal justly with the issues.

Now, where have I taken words out of context? I didn't pretend to quote any.......therefore your accusation is derogatory and a lie.

Now, where have I misrepresented the historical context of the times of Jesus ministry? Again, your accusation is derogatory and a lie.

I think the topic was Mancow and waterboarding and nothing in your quote which I addressed ....before or now.... related to that either..... so you are far off topic to be addressing another poster (Donna) for doing the same. Shame on you!

 

God's commands stand alone.....
But governments don't always submit to God's commands. If they did, we'd have no national debt; the possession of land and its resources would belong to the person who owns it without obstruction, restriction, or excess taxation; adultery and fornication would not go unpunished if known; hom@s@xuality would either be hidden or have the death penalty; there'd be no abortions; children and adults could pray whenever and wherever they wanted.... even on the WH steps and the steps of the SCOTUS, or in any of the national buildings; etc., etc., ; and wars, which were fought, would be for just cause...... as we were led to believe this last one was; wars would only be fought when necessary..... and then as quickly as possible to win, and bring an end to suffering and a return to stability.

CTB, you are in your conscience before God in your submission to whatever and wherever he has called you. If he has called you to the military to do service for your country.... then you follow the direction of your CIC and the orders passed down through the chain of command..... and pray to your God that you will not be lead into temptation.... but if so, that God will provide you a way of escape .....should you find yourself with orders which you detest or are immoral. This is the Christian's duty.

If a Christian knows that God has not called him to military service then why does he join to become a slave of government and military masters....unless it was through ignorance?

But if God has called some to serve in the military, why do you or I or anyone pretend to judge another's servant..... for whom God hath called, he has the power to direct in that calling for his own glory and to preserve the honor of his name..... and rather shouldn't we mind our own business in the areas to which he hath called us?

But in the end..... how is it that we look upon government, which does not submit to the authority of God, but serves its own purpose..... and then expect of it good things...... which only come from God? We cannot change the morality of government until we elect those who are submitted to the authority of God in government. We will not elect those who are submitted to the authority of God if we cannot correctly identify who they are and give them recognition and support and cease to let parties and our own personal interests divide us.

At the worst or at the best ........our voice is like the widow woman who kept knocking on the unjust judge's door, seeking relief....and repeatedly ignored.... until, eventually, his patience strained because she wouldn't let go, and eventually brought the hearing of her case forward. We are the widow woman, and our government heads are behind that door from which we seek justice and relief. The question remains.... will they hear us? Are we enough to be heard..... be it on the abortion issue.... or the treatment of human beings? And ARE these the real issues...... or just the symptoms of our own spiritual inertia which allowed us to sleep or accept the logics and the attacks from the world of darkness without rising to prayer and spiritual warfare and sounding loudly our trumpets of alarm..... at an earlier time?

 

One could also ask "How could this be considered to be torture if this one fellow was willing to under go waterboarding 200 times rather than talk?"

 

The purpose was not to obtain a confession. It was to obtain information concerning plans for future attacks.

 

What if he didn't have anything to talk about?

 

The excesses of these numbers seems much beyond the need for interrogation. Was the prisoner spitting and throwing feces at the guards? or is this an act of punishment, brutality, and revenge?

 

Perhaps it's because the "over 200 times" number is not accurate.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/200...ts-khalid-sheikh-mohammed-waterboarded-times/

"The water was poured 183 times -- there were 183 pours," the official explained, adding that "each pour was a matter of seconds."

The Times and dozens of other outlets wrote that the CIA also waterboarded senior Al Qaeda member Abu Zubaydah 83 times, but Zubayda himself, a close associate of Usama bin Laden, told the Red Cross he was waterboarded no more than 10 times.

 

Torturing a person one time is one time too many.

 

But killing babies is great, right. Who cares thousand of lives were saved hey we have to love those evil guys, who cares about Americans. Give me a break only the loony left could think so stupidly