manifestation vs gift

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by awaken, Oct 3, 2012.

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  1. awaken

    awaken
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    I have shared several times in other threads the scipture in 1 Cor. 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal"

    I have given the meaning as of the Greek word phanerosis, which means " a manifestation, a making visible or observable."

    Also gave illustrations of manifestations...such as

    Electric energy in a light bulb is manifested in the form of light and heat.
    Chicken pox is manifested as a rash or small pimple-like sores.

    Another example would be if I gave someone a swiss army knife (gift). It can be manifested in 9 different ways. Two blades/big and little, two screwdrivers/flat head and phillips, a can opener, an awl, scissors, a file and a pair of tweezers.

    So we see one gift with many manifestations. With that in mind...the Holy Spirit is the gift...the manifestations are listed in vs. 8-10.

    I believe in using the words that are in the Bible when talking about the things of God. Some people (myself included) will sometimes use "gifts" to desscribe wht the Bible calls "manifestations" of the Spirit. Words have definite meanings, and it is those meanings that clear communication is made possible. "Manifestation" does not mean "gift." The difference is that a gift is individually given, and no one has a gift unless it was given to them. A manifestation is an evidence, a showing forth, of something that a person already has.

    There are spiritual gifts, which include the Holy Spirit, God given ministries such as that of an apostle, prophet, teacher, evangelist etc. and the gift of everlasting life (Rom. 6:23).

    Also notice that every verse that they put "gift" in is not in the Greek text. (1 Cor. 12:1;13:2;14:1;12:12;12:37)

    The Greek word translated "spiritual" in 1 Cor. 12:1 and 14:1 is pneumatikos, which is an adjective, and thus needs a noun to complete the sense of the sentence.

    I think it is important to use the word "manifestation" rather than "gifts" when referring to the list in vs 8-10. God used that word, and we are always on solid ground when we use the language of the Bible. Plus it points to the fact that we are dealing with outward evidences of something, which in this case is the gift of Holy Spirit.

    Just wanted to clear that up!!:thumbs:
     
  2. John of Japan

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    So, God uses the word "gifts" (plural) in v. 4, but you think it is better to use the word manifestation and not say "gifts." I'll take God's Word over yours.
     
  3. Van

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    In verse 4 is charismaton, a plural noun meaning "grace effects." This might refer to various manifestations of God's grace. Using this idea, grace is the gift, a bestowal of divine favor, but that might cover a range of things, from a nice day to placing a person spiritually in Christ.

    Now in verse 9 we have a slightly different form of "grace effects" a plural noun.

    Bottom line, correctly translating God's words is very important, but it seems a stretch to say the grace effects of the Spirit cannot be referred to as gifts of the Spirit.
     
  4. awaken

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    I did not say not to use "gifts"...I said a better understanding comes from the word "manifestation." So he used a plural word...it does not take away that they are manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
     
  5. DHK

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    God the Holy Spirit revealed or manifested himself in different ways in different periods throughout history. When the Israel wandered throughout the wilderness God the Holy Spirit appeared as a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day. He doesn't manifest himself that way any longer.

    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    --In the OT God the Holy Spirit manifested or revealed himself in different ways to the fathers by the prophets. What were those "different ways"?
    They were: dreams, visions, audible voices, theophanies, angels, and other ways. God doesn't do that any more.

    In the first century God manifested himself through the gifts of the Spirit. He did that primarily through the Apostles. There were some others that were given these gifts by they were temporary. The local church were told that they would pass away and they did. There are no more apostles, no more temporary revelation being given, for our revelation is complete, no more unbelieving Jews, etc. The sign for which its use was intended has passed. The sign has been removed.

    Now the Holy Spirit manifests itself through the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
    He also manifests himself through convicting individuals of sin, righteousness, and judgement. That is his roll today.
     
  6. awaken

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    I do not disagree with this...but He does manifest through the 9 listings in 1 Cor. 12.

    Wrong...read Acts 2:17! Plus there are many examples in the NT that He spoke through dreams and visions. I do not limit God!

    Really? No unbelieving Jews? All the Jews believe in Jesus? You are wrong about the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself today...it will be until we come into the unity of the faith. Do you know what the unity of the faith is? Unity is a marriage language...study it out!

    You limit the work of the Holy Spirit! He does sooo much more than you listed! THe Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost and He will be with us until the church is complete and presented to the Lord Jesus at His coming. THe Holy Spirit is here to finish a work through the Church!!
     
  7. plain_n_simple

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    You are speaking to a people that have never witnessed a working of the Holy Ghost, therefore it does not and cannot exist. If something does happen, they will immediately assign it to Satan instead of rejoicing at another miracle of Jesus. They have quenched the Spirit with their knowledge, and have become stiff necked like the children in the desert. Can't you see how little faith they have just to live? Watch the way they talk, it is always flesh and fear.
     
  8. DHK

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    It is very sad to hear you make a sweeping judgment, and one that is not true, on all your fellow believers, such as you have done hear. Truly sad. You are saying that your brothers and sisters in Christ attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan. That is quite an accusation. Are you prepared to back it up?
     
  9. plain_n_simple

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    Most will reject, not all. I've seen it. If you watched the dead come to life who would you attribute it to? How many have you prayed for over the years?
     
  10. DHK

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    Many. But raising the dead is one of those miracles that Christ did and his apostles could do. It is not a miracle given to others. Who has raised the dead. Can it be verified? Who was it, and by whom, and when and where? Or, are these unverified anecdotal stories?
     
  11. plain_n_simple

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    Stop with the verification for a moment and consider with me please.

    You, DHK, witness a person praying over someone that died 8 hrs ago ok? Go with me...

    The person prays for whatever time in Jesus name.

    The dead person comes to life, who did it? God or Satan?
     
  12. DHK

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    First I wouldn't say Satan.
    Second, if it were just 8 hours ago, I would consider other options, as if the person were truly dead, or did some of his bodily functions shut down temporarily so that he seemed to be dead.
    Third, it still is not on par with the miracle of Jesus raising Lazarus who was four days dead, bound in grave clothes, and already buried.
    With the raising of Lazarus there was no question that Lazarus was dead.
     
  13. plain_n_simple

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    That is fine. Lets say they are in the funeral home. You watch the dead rise from a simple prayer in His name. Is it God?
     
  14. DHK

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    Yes, if from a Godly individual. Did it happen?
     
  15. plain_n_simple

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    Now you are thinking. You do not know if the person is Godly or not. All you heard them say was "Rise up in Jesus name", then they did. Is it still God?
     
  16. awaken

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    But I was once that person also...and my heart is that all will grow in love and faith! Sometimes we just want to give up...but God keeps telling us to tell the people.

    Like you said..most will first try to reason it within their own mind, then try to explain it away if they do not see, hear, touch, smell or speak it themselves. Faith goes beyond the flesh....I am still learning this myself! But it is a wonderful journey! Glad another Baptist gets this!
     
  17. John of Japan

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    Your OP title is "manifestation vs.gift" (sic). The word "vs." (versus) means one against the other.

    Then in the OP you said,
    In this statement, you say to call it a manifestation "rather than gifts" because "God used that word." But God used the word "gifts" too, yet you don't want to say that. You don't understand what you yourself said. So how can we trust your interpretations of the Bible as being right? We can't.
     
  18. awaken

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    "Gifts" in those chapters was added...they are in italics! But you can use what ever word you want. But to me manifestation is a clearer understanding concerning the ones listed in chapter 12. God called them "manifestations of the Spirit. THe gift itself is actually the Holy Spirit...the nine ways He manifest himself is listed in that chapter also.
     
  19. DHK

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    As I said in another post, you have no evidence.
    You have no evidence that He still manifests himself as fire by night and a cloud by day, as he die in the wilderness wandering, but you believed he did. You have no evidence that today he manifests himself through the operation of the gifts of the Spirit but at one time he did. They are not in operation, you would have evidence but there is none.
    Must I quote verse two also so that you can get the full context:

    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    --The two verses contrast each other.
    God in the OT spoke this way: visions, dreams, by His voice, etc.
    God in the NT speaks through His Son, and his Son his revealed to us through His Word, Acts 2:17 notwithstanding.
    The reference to the unbelieving Jews is given in 1Cor.14:21,22 as you well know. If they did not believe in the sign of speaking in other languages then, judgment would come upon them. It did. It came in 70 A.D. After that the Jews were dispersed. There was no more temple. It was destroyed and there hasn't been a Temple for them to worship at since that time.
    I believe what the Bible says. The Bible tells us what the ministry of the Holy Spirit is. God is a God of order and not confusion. To you He is confusion. You would have us believe that the Holy Spirit barks like dogs and hisses like snakes as in the Vineyard Church in Toronto. That is what Charismatics do. Their visions claim that they go to Heaven, then to Hell and back to earth again. Ludicrous. One of them saw God. It was during a sunrise. He took a picture of God, and is now selling "God" on the internet. Just think: You can buy a picture of God. Let alone the fact that "God is Spirit." "No man hath seen God at any time." These are the kind of people you are associated with. They have dreams, visions, etc. But of what? Full of heresy.
     
  20. awaken

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    Go the the other thread..I explained this!

    So do you deny Acts 2? He said in the NT that once the Holy Spirit was poured out that He would speak through dreams and visions!
    Do you not believe in the Trinity? WHen He speaks throught the Holy Spirit today..is that not through Jesus?

    You said that tongues were a sign to the unbelieving Jews. We still have unbelieving Jews today! You can not have it both ways! I have explained the unbelieve Jews in 1 Cor. 14 many times..but for the sake of those that did not read my stand I will repost it!...

    It turns out that "uninterpreted tongues" have been used in Israel's history as a sign to the unbelieving Israelites that God's judgment had come upon them. Paul was quoting a prophecy from Isaiah 28:11-12:
    "Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"-- but they would not listen." (Isaiah 28:11-12)
    This prophecy was fulfilled when the Assyrian army swooped down upon Israel speaking a foreign language (an uninterpreted tongue), carrying Israel off into captivity. Paul used an example from Israel's history to show that uninterpreted tongues are sometimes used as a "sign" for unbelievers that judgment has come upon them.

    Then Paul pointed out that if an unbeliever enters a church where Christians seem to have lost their minds, the unbeliever wouldn't see this as a sign of impending judgment. This is why Paul said that prophecy is much more beneficial during a church service.



    Where have I posted this..SHOW ME ONE POST THAT I AGREED TO THIS NONSENSE! QUIT ACCUSING ME OF SOMETHING I NEVER SAID...STICK TO DEFENDING THE SCIPTURES NOT PERSONAL ATTACKS WITH THESE LIES! I dear sir..am not confused!
    Again...you are wasting your time reposting such things...but it might be your only way of trying to defend what you can not find in scriptures.
    YOU TRY TO DISPROVE WHAT IS RIGHT BY SHOWING THE FALSE... THere are false Christ too...are you going to tell me Chirst is not real too???
     
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