Man's nature

You are something else Grasshopper. You can find Matthew Henry online (which I did), and I copied and pasted from that.

I do not normaly read commentaries, and do not rely on them to interpret scripture. I think they can be helpful on occasion.

It is only lately that I have started to read the writings of some Calvinist writers. I am tired of being told I have misrepresented or do not understand Calvinist doctrine. Solution? Go right to the source. So I copied some from Calvin here, Henry, and Pink. That way you cannot accuse me of misinterpreting scripture.

Truth is, every Calvinist seems to believe his own thing. No two are alike.

 

The holidays are over, I had to go back to work.

 

The only reason I carry on about this doctrine is that I believe it is error. Even you must admit I have submitted hundreds of scripture verses that give Calvinism a problem. The OP verse was:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

This verse is speaking of unsaved Gentiles and says "by nature" they follow the law. This shows that man's nature is not 100% evil.

My whole point is that the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity is error. Yes, all men are sinners, we all come short of the glory of God, no man is righteous. I agree with this. But this does not mean man is utterly incapable of doing some good.

I agree with Webdog, sin is trangression of the law. That is what the scriptures say.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And take the example Webdog gave, brushing your teeth. Is that breaking God's law? Of course not. So it is not evil to brush your teeth. Now, if a man gives money to charity, is that an evil act? No, it is a good act, God says to help the poor and needy. You can't just say a man would do this with some evil motive. A man may be genuinely concerned for others and wish to help. That is a good act.

But Calvinists paint every act of man as evil as Pink said. That is just not scriptural. God said Cain could give an acceptable sacrifice and be accepted with him.

But see, Calvinism has to paint every action of man as evil, else the doctrine of Total Depravity will fail and the system will fall apart.

And that is what Rom 2:14 shows, that unsaved man can do good and obey the laws. He is still a sinner, he needs Christ, but unsaved man is able to do some good. And unsaved man has a sense of good and evil in his nature. That is what this verse is saying. The scriptures never say man knows only evil, they say he knows good as well.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Man knows what good is, and man can perform good. But no matter how good a man might be, he still must pay for his sins. And if he sins just one time, the penalty is death, and so every man needs Christ.

And the verse Webdog showed shows the same.

Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

The first thing Paul says is that he observes they are very religious or superstitious. In other words, they were seeking God. And he even says that they worship the true God in ignorance, the "UNKNOWN GOD". And then Paul goes on to explain who this unknown god is.

These pagans were worshipping the true God, Paul says so.

Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

So, this shows that unsaved man does seek God, which contradicts Calvinism.

 

I see a little bit of rebellion in Saul (Paul) before he repented.

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

First, we see how hateful Paul was to the Christians, it says he breathed out threatenings and slaughter. He was zealous in his persecution of Christians. He jailed many, some were put to death. He was witness to Stephen's stoning.

When Christ appeared to him, he knew it was God. He fell to the ground.

Then, as is always shown first in salvation, he heard the word of God. Jesus said, "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?"

Here I think we see a little rebellion and stubborness in Paul, he asked, "Who art thou Lord?"

Now, that is a silly question, and does not seem very sincere. He knew quite well who he was persecuting, he had been persectuing Christians for some time. So, I believe we see a little bit of rebellion and even some dishonesty in Paul here.

But then the Lord tells Paul his name, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks". And note that Jesus said he was kicking against the pricks. Paul was resisting the Holy Spirit and had been for some time. I get the impression that Paul had been under conviction for awhile. He surely saw how good and innocent those he had been persecuting were. Yet, he hardened himself in his zealousness for what he thought was the only true religion. But I get the impression that his conscience had been bothering him for awhile. I think this is what Jesus is pointing out.

But now, he could deny no longer. Jesus himself spoke to Paul. He knew his name. And now there were only two options for him, he could continue to persecute Christians, or he could repent and follow Christ. And Paul did repent, for the next words out of his mouth were, " Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" He confesses Jesus Christ is Lord right there, something he had not believed before. And he submits to Jesus, and is willing to be obedient.

So, Paul was not zapped to believe. He heard the word of God, then repented and trusted on Christ as the scriptures always show. And it was three days later that he received the Holy Spirit.

If Calvinism is true, then a person receives the Holy Spirit twice, which is never shown in scriptures. First, a person receives the Holy Spirit to be regenerated, and then after believing receives the Holy Spirit again.

Is this what Calvinism and DoGs believe? That a man receives the Holy Spirit twice?

 

You know I am not allowed to say that.

I believe Calvinism is wrong because it is substituting regeneration for the work that Christ did on the cross. You see, unless God regenerates you, then the work of Christ cannot do anything for you.

Now, I am pretty sure how you would answer that. You would say that non-Cals place trusting Christ before the work of Christ.

The problem is, I think Calvinists have a faulty idea of what faith is. It is not some supernatural power. And it is not a work. To depend on someone is not a work, it is depending on the work of another.

As I have given example before, jumping out of an airplane with a parachute is a pretty good example of faith. When you do this, you trust or rely on the parachute to get you down safely. You are not working at all. The parachute does the work, and by trusting you allow it to do the work. You do not flap your arms and try to fly yourself.

And faith comes before the action of jumping. You are not going to jump out of the plane unless you believe the parachute reliable to get you down.

This is what Paul means when he says, "how shall they call on whom they have not believed?. You are not going to call on Christ (which is an action) unless you first believe Jesus is the Son of God and can save you.

So, faith is not an action, it is not a work, although faith will always move you to action. But the action follows the faith.

When Jesus comes to you, he is really asking you to allow him to save you. He will not force himself upon you, but if you give him permission, he will save you. He does all the work, he has all the power. I cannot possibly save myself, I have no power. What can I do? I get no credit, if Jesus had not revealed himself to me, I could not possibly have faith in him and call on him. And I certainly have no power whatsoever to save myself.

Faith is simply believing and trusting what God has said to us. It is not a work.

But in Calvinism, it is not the work of Christ that saves you, it is regeneration. If God regenerates you, you are saved, it cannot be resisted. If he does not regenerate you, you cannot possibly be saved. This makes the gospel, the work of Christ on the cross and rising from the dead secondary.

But the scriptures say the gospel is the power of God to salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes. It is like that parachute. It has all the power and ability to save you if you will rely upon it.

But if you have to be regenerated before you can believe, then regeneration is the power unto salvation, not the gospel.

 

We are not allowed to say that, and you know that. I would get banned.

Do you want me to get banned?

 

OK, we are agreed here. But Calvinists seem to teach that regeneration is an internal work, that the Holy Spirit supernaturally makes the man born again so that he has all the abilities to be saved (desire, repentance, faith...).

Where we forever disagree is that I believe the unsaved, unregenerate man already has the ability to respond to God, he can hear, understand to a degree, repent, and believe. Yes, man does need the influence of God, a man cannot possibly believe on Christ if he has not ever heard of him. But through the scriptures we do know of Christ and can respond to the gospel.

The gospel does awaken and enlighten a man. Without God's word, I would not have a clue. I wouldn't know who the true God is, I wouldn't know who Jesus is. But it does not take a supernatural work to enlighten a man. Look what the scriptures say:

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Does this verse say a man must be supernaturally regenerated before they can come to Christ? NO. It says they must be TAUGHT of God. It says whoever hath HEARD and LEARNED of the Father comes to Christ.

Does an unregenerated man have the ability to hear? Yes. Does the unregenerate man have the ability to be taught and learn? Yes.

Now, without God first providing his word, I cannot possibly hear his word, and I cannot possibly be taught and learn from his word.

But a man does not need a supernatural work performed upon himself to hear and learn. We all have that ability. Why do we send our kids to school?

And you see, if man does need a supernatural work performed on him to come to Christ, then Christ neglected to say that. If this is so important as Calvinism teaches, then why is this not mentioned even one time in all of scripture? We are talking about a man's eternal soul, and God would neglect to tell us that we must be regenerated. And not only does he fail to mention this regeneration, he misleads us by saying all we have to do is hear and learn.

Does that make sense to you? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

Let me give you an example you might understand. The teachings of evolution. I utterly reject evolution and believe God created everything in six days.

So it is the exact opposite of 1 Cor 2:14

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I will not receive or accept evolution, it is foolishness to me. I won't listen to it. I understand what they are trying to teach, but it doesn't make sense to me. I cannot see unliving matter for no cause becoming living matter.

The unsaved understand the gospel to a degree. They make fun of it. They understand we believe Christ died for us and that we believe he rose from the dead. They understand we believe in an afterlife, that is why they call it "pie in the sky". But they don't WANT to believe it, because if they do, they know Jesus is going to tell them to give up the sins they love.

Look what John Lennon said:

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky

Imagine all the people
Living for today...

John Lennon understood to a great degree what Christians believe. He understood heaven, and hell, and when he says "imagine all the people, living for today", he understood we have faith in the afterlife. We are giving up things in this world because we believe there is a great reward afterward. We are living for the future in faith.

So, the unsaved can understand spiritual concepts to a degree. Yes, to them it seems foolish, because they do not believe in God. They think we are wasting our time, and giving up pleasures in this life. But they know and understand what we believe. They are not utterly without understanding as Calvinism teaches.