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Man's nature

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Winman, Jan 4, 2010.

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  1. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Well, I'm not getting paid for this, and I could use the money. :laugh:

    Now, I don't know if I can communicate to you what I see as the big error in Calvinism.

    It is making regeneration primary. In Calvinism, if God didn't elect you before the foundation of the world, then the gospel is meaningless to you, it cannot do one good thing for you. When Jesus took all the sins of the world, the sins of every man upon himself and died for us, when he rose from the dead, this is all meaningless and pointless, because it cannot possibly help you unless you were elected and then regenerated by God. Calvinists believe they are saved because God elected them, not so much on what Jesus did. This places election before the gospel. There are some like Pinoybaptist who have been very clear about this.

    But to the non-Cal, the death burial and resurrection of Christ is primary. We simply depend or trust upon this work. We are not working, we are depending upon what Jesus did for us. And we believe that those who God saw would believe are the elect. So election follows trusting in the work of Christ.

    It is so hard to come up with good analogies. I once heard it like this.

    Suppose you committed some crime. You come before a judge. The judge says you must pay a $10,000 dollar fine or go to jail for one year. You have no money.

    Then a friend steps in and says, "Judge, I will pay the fine, I will pay the $10,000 my friend owes"

    Now the judge looks at you and asks, "Will you accept this payment on your behalf?"

    Now, you have a choice. You can say yes and accept this payment made in your behalf by another and go free, or you can be proud. You could say, "No judge, I do not accept it, I always pay my own way, I don't need someone else paying my fines for me."

    And that is how unsaved people are. They are proud. They think they are worthy of salvation on their own merits. They will not humble themselves and admit they come short of righteousness. Men do not like to believe themselves sinners. Go down the street and ask people if they think they are going to heaven. I used to do lots of visitation years ago and I have asked hundreds of people this question. I cannot remember any person saying they were going to hell, all of them said they were going to heaven.

    Then I would always ask them why they thought they were going to heaven, and they would always answer about the same. They would say they were good people, and that God would be pleased with them and admit them to heaven.

    One two three four five six seven, all good children go to heaven...

    This is what people believe. It is very difficult to get people to admit they are sinners that deserve hell. Problem is, we live in a world of sin. It is easy to look around and see murders, and wars, thefts, and corruption and tell ourselves we are good because we do not do those things. But compared to God we are filthy. He is perfectly HOLY, without sin altogether, and compared to him we all come short.

    But in Calvinism there is no repentance, and there is no faith in the gospel, at least not until you are supernaturally regenerated. So it is regeneration that saves you, not what Jesus did. You cannot be saved without regeneration. And you are regenerated without having to admit you are a wicked sinner. In fact, according to Calvinism, you cannot. So you are already saved and born again before you admit you are a sinner and before you trust on the work of Christ.

    Do you understand what I am saying?

    To me that is a very serious error. It is Jesus who died for us and rose from the dead that saves us, nothing can be placed before it.
     
    #81 Winman, Jan 6, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2010
  2. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    I don't know if this is actually what the Primitive Baptist believe, but if it is, it just shows how ignorant some of their beliefs are. This is the silliest thing I have ever heard!
     
    #82 Robert Snow, Jan 6, 2010
  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    We also should take note of the work of the Holy Spirit : reproval/conviction of sin. If there is no heart felt condemnation of sin then we conclude that we do not need a Savior.

    John 16
    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
    10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
    11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

    So, in my estimation, conviction of sin comes before the 1 – 7 iteration above but I suppose it could come between 1 and 2.


    HankD
     
    #83 HankD, Jan 6, 2010
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Winman, you're like the Energizer Bunny, you just keep going and going and going.......

    You would do well to realize you still have much to learn and there's absolutely no one that's going to burn in hell for anything that any of us say or fail to say or do or fail to do. Period.

    If you believe other than that then you should not be wasting all this time on this board with all these 'saved' people. You should be out there witnessing , passing out pamphlets, going door to door, etc., etc.. :)

    I'm done with this. I've other things to do.
     
    #84 kyredneck, Jan 6, 2010
  5. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I have never seen that Calvinists believe that one is born again and THEN is saved. That makes no sense.

    However, God makes man aware of his sin, makes him no longer desire sin and instead desire God. When man turns his heart to God in repentance and belief, THAT is when he is born again.

    I think you put too much into the idea of God's hand on man before he is saved. You say that God saves them first - Calvinism says that God makes them aware of life first. Big difference.
     
    #85 annsni, Jan 6, 2010
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    What Allan surmised is a gross misrepresentation of what the Old Baptists believe. I assure you, their beliefs are not 'silly'. They are sound.
     
    #86 kyredneck, Jan 6, 2010
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    And this is the duty of both Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike.
     
    #87 DHK, Jan 6, 2010
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Almost all the ones that I have spoken to on this board believe this way. Old Regular does for sure.
    Regeneration (the new birth) must precede salvation they say. For it must be "all of God, and not of man." If you "believe" then salvation is "of man" is the accusation (though it is false). After regeneration then God is able (a limitation put on God) to give man the faith to put in Christ and acquire salvation. This is how it has been explained to me.
     
    #88 DHK, Jan 6, 2010
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Ann, I have to go to work, so this will be brief.

    Calvinism teaches that God supernaturally transforms a man, so that he suddenly has the ability to desire God, to hear God's word, and to believe God's word.

    I have been debating this for awhile, I know this is what Calvinism believes. So they teach a man has life, is reborn, is regenerated even before they admit they are a sinner. They do not believe an unsaved man has the ability to either repent or believe.

    So, it is regeneration that saves you if this doctrine is true, not the work Christ did. You are saved not because you believed on Christ, but because God elected you for no known reason and regenerated you. No repentance needed, no faith.

    Gotta go.
     
    #89 Winman, Jan 6, 2010
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    "Regeneration" for a Calvinist is not the "regeneration" for an Arminian. It's not salvation but a wakening to be able to receive salvation.
     
    #90 annsni, Jan 6, 2010
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No, it is more than just an awakening. It is a complete change. It is defined as the "new birth." This is where one is actually born again. And this is where the real biblical error comes in, IMO.
     
    #91 DHK, Jan 6, 2010
  12. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    And I disagree that what you have stated is the reformed position. "Believed and be saved" is the recurring theme in the New Testament. However, man cannot believe in a dead state. God "awakens" him to be able to believe and it happens so closely together that it is almost like one item - like fire and heat. How do you get heat? Fire. How do you get fire? Heat.

    From Monergism.org:

     
    #92 annsni, Jan 6, 2010
  13. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Word games! Regeneration doesn't mean what it means if it contracts what I believe. The Calvinists favorite tactic!
     
    #93 Robert Snow, Jan 6, 2010
  14. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Ask a Mormon who Jesus is. Ask a Jehovah's Witness. You will get a different answer.

    "Regeneration" is a term that means something. If your definition is different than my definition, why are we arguing over the terms? Why not work off the definition instead?
     
    #94 annsni, Jan 6, 2010
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You should really debate OR. You would have "fun." HA HA.
    They believe that faith has to be given by God or man cannot be saved.
    Faith can only be given by God after regeneration.
    This is unscriptural. Faith to believe is not given by God. Faith as a gift is not given to any unsaved person. Spiritual gifts are not given to unsaved persons. Yet the Bible teaches salvation is by faith. Therefore, they say, regeneration or the new birth must take place first.

    We say that there must be conviction of the Holy Spirit through the Word, or as the gospel is presented. Yes the Holy Spirit does a work in the heart. But that is not regeneration. That is not the new birth. The Calvinist will not agree with this. The person must be regenerated; he must be born again. Only then can he receive faith from God to be saved, a completely unscriptural position. Where does the Bible teach that God gives faith to an unsaved person to believe, or that a person is magically regenerated in order to receive faith from God to be saved? It doesn't.
     
    #95 DHK, Jan 6, 2010
  16. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    See, I believe in the doctrine of grace and I do not believe any of what you've written. I've never heard of God going against man's will, saving him then saying "Oh yeah - here you go!". It's not what the doctrine of grace teaches nor Scripture.
     
    #96 annsni, Jan 6, 2010
  17. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    For the record WD has 142 posts using the words strawman (102 times)and strawmen (40 times). The actual word count must be at least 200 or more instances because he repeats the words multiple times in some of those posts. But he'll break his record in record time I'm sure.
     
    #97 Rippon, Jan 6, 2010
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Here are some quotes:
    http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1496657&postcount=160
    http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1496875&postcount=166

    This doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it.
    Man has no free will, no choice, until God comes and regenerates his heart. I suppose he could do that to the heathen in Africa or to anyone in this world--kind of like universalism. But it is God that does the work; it doesn't matter who receives it because we know it is "the elect." Somehow this is a magical event. There is no faith involved.

    Not until the above event, the new birth, takes place can man have the faith to respond to the gospel call.
    That is not what happened on the Day of Pentecost. And you would have a hard time proving it.
     
    #98 DHK, Jan 6, 2010
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Quite a bit of time on your hands, eh Rip? As usual, you brought a lot to this discussion :rolleyes:
     
    #99 webdog, Jan 6, 2010
  20. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    How do you figure?
    I posted what the PB believe regarding election (eternal salvation) vs. Temporal or timely salvation. THEN..I quoted from 'your own sourse material' the EXACT SAME THING.., that being - only a saved person can be saved.

    Here is another post from another PB'er who states this EXACT same thing in another ongoing thread:

    So here is a question that should clear me up and at least get me going in the right direction rather than misrepresentating your view - which I DO NOT wish to do.

    Question:
    Are there people who are saved that have never or will never believe?

    ie. people who are JW's, Mormons, occulticts, Pagans, atheists, ect..through their death, never believing.
    This is what all the other PB'ers on the board have stated through various debate about this very discussion.
     
    #100 Allan, Jan 6, 2010
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