Man's Will, Man's Impotency, & The Gidt Of God

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Bob Krajcik, May 19, 2005.

  1. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik
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    Man’s Will

    It is said, God would have gathered you, but ye would not.

    Matthew 23:37 (KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    John 5:40 (KJV) And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    Man’s Impotency

    They could not believe.

    John 12:39 (KJV) Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

    They cannot receive the things of God.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Faith

    All men have not faith.

    2 Thessalonians 3:2 (KJV) And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

    Faith is given on behalf of Christ, that the sheep would believe.

    Philippians 1:29 (KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

    It is given unto us to believe by the power of God.

    Philippians 2:13 (KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    If one comes to Christ, they come by faith.

    John 6:65 (KJV) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    Without faith it is impossible to please God.

    Hebrews 11:6 (KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    The Gift Of God

    God Hides These Things From One But Reveals Them To Another

    Matthew 11:25 (KJV) At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    God Gives To One But Does Not Give To Another

    Matthew 13:11 (KJV) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    If it be of ourselves it is not the gift of God.

    Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Do you agree, or disagree? If you do not agree with this, what Scripture do you use to show your rebuttal?
     
  2. whatever

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    I agree, except for that very first verse. Jesus doesn't say "I would have gathered you". Instead, he says "I would have gathered your children but you would not". We Baptists usually aren't comfortable talking about that kind of thing.
     
  3. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik
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    Whatever:

    Thank you for your comments. The very first verse is correct as I presented it, but I agree, in error my few comments introducing the verse do not properly quote the verse.

    If you don't mind, I'm missing the point. What is it Baptists usually aren't comfortable talking about?
     
  4. Wes Outwest

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    I'll use the ones you posted.
    The scripture is Jesus speaking of God addressing his beloved City whose children refuse to come to Him. He is not saying that All mankind refuse to come, only the children of Jerusalem, the crown jewel of the priesthood!

    John 5:40 taken out of context as you have done to it, means anything you want it to mean. However, in context it refutes you.
    Again the context does not support your contention!
    I believe you have misquoted Paul. He is not saying that ALL men do not have faith, but rather NOT ALL men have faith. You see that in Paul's request that the Thessalonians pray
    So once again you have taken scripture out of its context and tried to make it say what it does not! May the Lord rebuke you for you sin!
     
  5. Bob Krajcik

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    Wes, Outwest says:
    John 5:40 taken out of context as you have done to it, means anything you want it to mean. However, in context it refutes you.

    Wes, Outwest says:
    Again the context does not support your contention!

    Wes, Outwest says:
    I believe you have misquoted Paul. He is not saying that ALL men do not have faith, but rather NOT ALL men have faith. You see that in Paul's request that the Thessalonians pray

    Wes, Outwest says:
    So once again you have taken scripture out of its context and tried to make it say what it does not! May the Lord rebuke you for you sin!

    Wes, Outwest says:
    Once again the context belies your misuse of scripture.

    In reply to the above, then why haven't you answered to show what you claim is wrong, and in turn, counter that with what you say is correct?

    Wes, Outwest says:
    No, this passage of scripture does not say that FAITH is given to man by God, on behalf of Christ, that the sheep would believe. It says "not only can you believe in the Christ you too can suffer as well!

    In reply, no, the passage certainly does not say what you claim. Here is what the verse says: Philippians 1:29 (KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

    Wes, Outwest says:
    NO To the contrary verse 13 IN CONTEXT, tells us that God for his own purpose helps us to act out our faith in working out our salvation. These that Paul is addressing are believers, and it is believers whom God empowers to act out their faith no matter where they are, no matter what their surroundings.

    In reply, then why haven't you answered to show what you claim is wrong, and in turn, counter that with what you say is correct? Faith is given to the elect that they would believe, by the power of God. However much you disagree, you need to show what you say is correct. Even as faith is given to the elect that they would believe, it is God that works in them, by His power. Philippians 2:13 says, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    Wes, Outwest says:
    You have once again demonstrated that you have no understanding of scripture. through your Calvinist study guide in the trash, it is hopelessly worthless to your understanding of scripture. It in truth blocks the truth from you! Trash it!

    In reply, then why haven't you answered to show what you claim is wrong, and in turn, counter that with what you say is correct?

    Wes, Outwest says:
    Not even half way through and your misuse of scripture reveals that we need not go any further. Consider yourself refuted!

    In reply, Why haven't you answered to show what you claim is wrong, and in turn, counter that with what you say is correct?

    By grace,
    Bob
     
  6. Wes Outwest

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    I did, I posted the scripture IN CONTEXT! The scripture IN CONTEXT refutes your contention!
     
  7. Wes Outwest

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    And you'd be wrong again, because verse 29 says "you are "permitted" to believe on him, but you are also to suffer because you do so! In otherwords, it it a warning, that by believing in the Christ you will suffer for doing so in the world! You will be persecuted by the world!

    By the way, why did you stop at the semicolon? What follows the semicolon clarifies what precedes it! Oh, don't answer that, I already know. It is because what follows the semicolon refutes the point you are attempting to make.
     
  8. Wes Outwest

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    No all I need to do is let scripture say what you believe is incorrect! AND IT DOES!

    Faith is given to the elect? Faith comes to any and all who hear the Word of God and believe in Him. You cannot define who the elect may be, you cannot even defined a specification for what being elect requires! You cannot explain the source of faith in man. And you certainly cannot define grace! You cannot clearly state what salvation is, or how one may obtain it. That's the MILK of the word, until you understand the milk You'd better not venture where your understanding does not exist!
     
  9. Bob Krajcik

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    I did, I posted the scripture IN CONTEXT! The scripture IN CONTEXT refutes your contention! </font>[/QUOTE]It would seem if you were so sure, you would show where my error is, and explain your own reason for holding your beliefs. You have failed to do that.
     
  10. Bob Krajcik

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    And you'd be wrong again, because verse 29 says "you are "permitted" to believe on him, but you are also to suffer because you do so! In otherwords, it it a warning, that by believing in the Christ you will suffer for doing so in the world! You will be persecuted by the world!

    By the way, why did you stop at the semicolon? What follows the semicolon clarifies what precedes it! Oh, don't answer that, I already know. It is because what follows the semicolon refutes the point you are attempting to make.
    </font>[/QUOTE]No, Philippians 1:29 does not say what you claim it says. I have quoted the verse as it is written. Further, I stopped at the semi-colon because verse 29 stops there. It was verse 29 that I quoted. You might have missed that, and perhaps that is the reason you have been saying Philippians 1:29 does not say what it so very clearly does say.
     
  11. Bob Krajcik

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    No all I need to do is let scripture say what you believe is incorrect! AND IT DOES!

    Faith is given to the elect? Faith comes to any and all who hear the Word of God and believe in Him. You cannot define who the elect may be, you cannot even defined a specification for what being elect requires! You cannot explain the source of faith in man. And you certainly cannot define grace! You cannot clearly state what salvation is, or how one may obtain it. That's the MILK of the word, until you understand the milk You'd better not venture where your understanding does not exist!
    </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, Outwest:

    If you would deal with these things, and not continue your practice of saying the Scripture does not say what it clearly does say, such as you have with Philippians 1:29, and if you would deal with these verses in a manner beyond your expressions that you do not like what the Scriptures do clearly say, perhaps there would be something to discuss. As it is, if you continue your usual practice, you are welcomed to have the last word. You have not given anything to refute what I have said, and you have not given anything to defend your own position. The only thing you have made clear is that you do not like what I have been saying. With that, you are not giving me anything that warrants a reply. I have encouraged you to defend your position, but you refuse. There simply is no reason for further comments from me in reply to what you have been posting.

    By grace,
    Bob

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    Bob Krajcik said,
    you posted
    I responded by quoting the same scripture IN CONTEXT.
    The scripture is Jesus speaking of God addressing his beloved City whose children refuse to come to Him. He is not saying that All mankind refuse to come, only the children of Jerusalem, the crown jewel of the priesthood!

    You say that Matt 23:37 is dealing with "man's will", a phrase that is ALL inclusive of humanity. However, IN CONTEXT, Jesus is speaking of the children of Jerusalem, Jerusalem is the Religious Capital of Israel, that spawns the Jewish religion. It is these "children" that refused to come to Jesus who is the Messiah. It is not the people of Etheopia, Rome, Greece, modern day Turkey, The Arabian countries, India, the FAR EAST, or the modern European, or Russian peoples.

    Your point is that All mankind refuses to come to God. The scripture you posted decrees that it is those who are "spawned" out of the Jerusalem culture. Your point fails for that reason!
     
  13. icthus

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    Hi Wes

    I see no point at all to keep on responding to these hard line Calvinists, who are simply NOT interested in learning the truth, since they think that they alone have all the right answers, while we who oppose them are always wrong. They are pompous, and deluded, ans aruge for the sake of it. It is no matter to them if their theology makes God the author of sin. I have complained to one of the moderators, who is a Calvinist, and he is of the opinion that NO theology will be edited, only personal attacks! So, it is no problem to blaspheme the Lord Jesus here, but to attack someone by calling them a heretic, or questioning if they are saved, is not on. It is no wonder that Christianity around the world, especially in the Reformed Churches, in on the decline. This is because the Lord is not interested in self-righteous bigots, who believe such heresy as Limited Atonement.
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    GET REAL! Verse numbers do not define scriptural thoughts! FOLLOW THE PUNCTUATION! not the numbers!
     
  15. whatever

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    Bob,

    We almost always speak of salvation in individualistic terms - my faith, my choice, my free will, etc. - and we almost never give any thought to biblical concepts like fathers eating grapes and their children's teeth being set on edge. We just don't talk about how God visits the iniquity of parents to the third or fourth generation, nor about how He blesses the descendants of those who keep His word. That's all I meant.
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    Yes, it is really difficult to continue discussion with one who continually misuses scripture to support a FALSE Doctrine, the doctrine of Calvinism! Any intelligent person easily sees through the myst that shrouds your eyes from the truth! You take portions of thoughts and make those portions of thoughts into monolithic stand-alone scripture. A classic example of this is Phil 1:29. Your thought stops at the verse number, when the thought continues in to verse numbered 30 (See below, where I have removed the verse numbers and rely strictly on the punctuation of the text.) Now tell me that your understanding that we are "given by God" faith to believe in his only begotten son Jesus. Is Paul not really saying that because you believe in God, God grants you the privilege of believing in the Christ, and that in so doing you too will suffer persecution in the world. He continues after the semicolon to tell the Philippians that they too are fighting the battle they witnessed Paul fighting for the Christ.

    You see Krajcik, I am dealing fairly and honestly with you concerning YOUR false beliefs.
     
  17. Bob Krajcik

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    icthus:

    It seems if you were able to clearly refute what I have said, you would do that. I encourage you to defend your position, and since you have not, you must not have a valid reason why you do not like what I have said. I have presented positive words in defence of what I have been saying, but you are presenting negative words expressing your displeasure. You are welcomed to have the last word, if you continue in the negative manner you have been. If you want to refute what I have said, then deal with what I have said, and show why you disagree, and what you think is correct.

    By grace,
    Bob
     
  18. Brandon C. Jones

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    lots of venom...remember we're all on the same team and have much more in common than differences. [​IMG]
     
  19. Bob Krajcik

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    Bob,

    We almost always speak of salvation in individualistic terms - my faith, my choice, my free will, etc. - and we almost never give any thought to biblical concepts like fathers eating grapes and their children's teeth being set on edge. We just don't talk about how God visits the iniquity of parents to the third or fourth generation, nor about how He blesses the descendants of those who keep His word. That's all I meant.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the reply. I think I understand what you are saying, and I agree.

    To offer some explanation, those with thoughts of absolute predestination do, in my opinion, sometimes fail to realize their actions have impact, but so do the actions of those that do not believe in predestination. Many a life has been damaged a result of another. The apostle Paul spoke of how he was debtor (Rom 1:14-15), and myself, I find those words challenging.

    By grace,
    Bob
     
  20. Bob Krajcik

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    Brandon:

    There is a problem, that seems clear without making special mention, but rather than simply exclaiming there is a lot of venom, if you think it needful to point such things out, perhaps it would be better if you would deal in direct and specific terms, rather than painting with a broad brush. If you would accuse me of spewing venom, then be clear and show specifics, and I would be happy to give you answer. I have no desire to take part in two sides accusing the other of being ignorant, blind or venomous. I will leave this thread if that is to be the focus.

    By grace,
    Bob
     

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