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Manuscript Inspiration.

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by DeclareHim, Aug 2, 2004.

  1. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Anyway, just from reading Psalm 12, one can see that v 7 is God saying he is going to protect the oppressed from those who are deceitful and who are ignoring the needy (referred to in verses 2-4). That is what the whole psalm is about. It opens with the statement that "the godly" have disappeared. God will shelter the poor from the ungodly.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    And how do you suppose God does this?

    What saith the rest of the scriptures?

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  2. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Sorry to burst your bubble. But that passage was in Hebrew not English. God did not inspire the writers to write in a language that did not exist.

    Second inspiration is much like the great claims laid to the origin of the Mormon books and the book that Muslims claim to be scripture. Ever thought about the parallels between what you believe and what the Muslims and Mormons teach regarding what they believe to be the origin of their pseudo scripture. All coming from an "inspired prophet".
     
  3. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    It is quite obvious He is not using others to get through to you. You are not a learner but one who knows it all. If you are not a learner you will never know more than you do now; which is very little. You are so busy trying to play teacher with such ignorance that you cannot be taught. Those who know, recognize the things you don't see. Those who know the most know how little they really know.
     
  4. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    You have all the answers. Did not God teach you? So why do you ask?
     
  5. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I find it interesting that the KJV I have agrees with the NASU but translates it contrary to what they have in the foonotes.

    Ps. 12:7 KJV " Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. {them from: Heb. him, etc: that is, every one of them, etc}

    Ps. 12:7 NASU "You, O Lord, will keep them; You will preserve him from this generation forever."
     
  6. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    I find it interesting that the KJV I have agrees with the NASU but translates it contrary to what they have in the foonotes.

    Ps. 12:7 KJV " Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. {them from: Heb. him, etc: that is, every one of them, etc}

    Ps. 12:7 NASU "You, O Lord, will keep them; You will preserve him from this generation forever."

    --------------------------------------------------

    Maybe it is because of this:

    Isaiah 55, Jer.50, Matt.13, Mark 4, Luke 8,
    2 Cor. 9

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I agree with the KJVO (but not their radical doctrine) with their interpretation of this verse in Psalm 12 as have many down through the ages.

    Also, it has been shown here at the BB that this is not a precedent where the Hebrew uses mixed gender concerning the same subject.

    Might I also remind everyone that the Christians of the martyrdom of the early Church of Rome were not protected from harm by God but were allowed to be given over to wild beasts, atrocities and crucified along the roads of Rome until the entire world knew the blessed name of Jesus Christ and the love whereby they loved Him (they loved not their lives unto death).

    Personally (and I am definitely NOT KJVO) I don't see how this passage (according to the KJVO interpretation) effects anyone's doctrine of the preservation and transmission of the Word of God.

    Personally, I have decided not to debate this passage since in reality we all believe it in one way or another, perhaps not this with this particular verse as a "proof text".

    HankD
     
  8. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    Not so Lacy. And as far as I know you have not responded to my last refutation of the false statement you repeat here.

    Scripture was "given" by inspiration... not copied, not translated but GIVEN. Further the Bible tells us WHO it was given to: prophets, Apostles, and holy men of old. They were specially chosen by God Himself and their authority was validated by Him through miracles and fulfilled prophecies.
     
  9. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    My Mama gave me a copy of the inspired scriptures nearly 40 years ago.

    There is absolutely nothing here in this verse even remotely referring to autographs. This verse is about prophecies written down and preserved in scripture. Notice the word "speak". Nothing to do with SCRIPTures. Only the prophecies that were written down in SCRIPTure are important and binding to us. God moved (inspired) lots of holy men in old times to PROPHESY, but only a few wrote scripture.


    KJV Acts 8
    30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
    32 The place of the scripture which he read was this,

    34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh [Present tense! The Prophet still speaks! Every time SCRIPTURE is read] the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
    35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, [The inspired SCRIPTURE the eunuch held IN HIS HAND] and preached unto him Jesus.
     
  10. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Wow, I wasn't aware that the KJV existed at the time of Philip and the eunuch. Thanks for clearing that up.

    BTW, I was told by a KJVO<snipped> this weekend that I being heretical when I referred to the Messiah as Joshua. He insisted that God gave him the name Jesus. Yet another example of version-onlyist ignorance and misjudgement.

    [ August 03, 2004, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: C4K ]
     
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Acts 8
    31 The place of the scripture which he read was this,
    32 He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
    33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

    Isaiah 53
    He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
    for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    Lacy, yes inspired Scripture, but have you noticed the difference between the Acts 8 account and Isaiah 53?

    Acts 33 has “In his humiliation his judgment was taken away” while
    Isaiah 53 has “He was taken from prison and from judgment”.

    The word "humiliation" for instance does not appear in the Isaiah 53 account.

    Among other differences.

    Can we conclude that a translation does not have to be an exact word for word and still be considered "inspired"?

    Again, what about the differences between Acts and Isaiah 53 which change the meaning of the two following phrases?

    “In his humiliation his judgment was taken away”
    “He was taken from prison and from judgment”.


    HankD
     
  12. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Follow the argument JohnV. You look more intelligent when you do.

    You can tell when someone runs out of objective arguments. They start spitting, slobbering, name-calling and turning red.

    Lacy
     
  13. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim New Member

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    Not so Lacy. And as far as I know you have not responded to my last refutation of the false statement you repeat here.

    Scripture was "given" by inspiration... not copied, not translated but GIVEN. Further the Bible tells us WHO it was given to: prophets, Apostles, and holy men of old. They were specially chosen by God Himself and their authority was validated by Him through miracles and fulfilled prophecies.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Good point [​IMG]
     
  14. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    To reach that conclusion, we would have to be certain that The "Isaiah" being read was our same Isaiah 53 and not some other writing which was not for us. Many times the OT writers quoted books that never made it into our canon. God took out of them what he wanted us to have and passed it on through our canon. I believe that those lost books aree scripture. (At the very least the portion quoted in our Bible is.)

    It is like when a prophet prophesied in the OT and NT. Some prophecies were recorded and some weren't. They were all from God and for a particular person or group. But some were for all and these became scripture.

    Another possibility is what I call a "divine paraphrase". The NT writer (Luke) could have been led by the Holy Ghost and paraphrasing.

    There may be other possibilities, but if we eliminate all those possibilities, then yes we can conclude that a translation does not have to be an exact word for word of the autograph and still be considered "inspired"?

    I don't have a problem with either possibility.

    Lacy
     
  15. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim New Member

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    I would argue that any version of the Bible is inspired, though the inspiration is derived from the inspiration of the original writings. [/QUOTE]

    I believe in that they are accurate of the original. But not 'inspired' but yea I'm with you in that they can be very accurate. [​IMG]

    Could you explain why you believe specifically in mss. preservation? [/QB][/QUOTE]

    Because I believe God is preserving His Word but His Words weren't always inspired in every language except the original Greek so from that I draw that He inspired the original writing and has kept them down through the years. As far as preservation look at the dead sea scrolls logic would have said they would have passed away long ago but yet there they are I believe God kept them and preserved them there look at other ancient mss we have discovered. Simply stated I think God has kept His Words in the mss (by preservation.)
     
  16. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    You're making a case for single-translation-onlyism with a verse that has nothing to do with that topic. There is no arguement, except that your arguement lacks scriptural support in regards to the aforementioned context.
    Yes, supporters of single-translationism do this frequently.
     
  17. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    Without translation, there would be the *non-preserved* Word of God. We must remember that translation derived from God's preserved Word in the apographs. The KJV is the *preserved* Word of God. The KJV is a translation.

    Psalm 12:6-7 refer to the Greek/Hebrew MSS where the KJV was derived from. Therefore these passages refer to the preservation of the Holy Scriptures, the words of God.
     
  18. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    That is your favorite word: INTERPRETATION!!!! Why do you think the interpretation is more important than translation?
     
  19. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    You're making a case for single-translation-onlyism with a verse that has nothing to do with that topic. There is no arguement, except that your arguement lacks scriptural support in regards to the aforementioned context.</font>[/QUOTE]"Single-translation onlyism," was not hinted at in my posts here. I actually went out of my way to mention that it was a "separate argument." Keep up! This is a discussion about the definition of "scripture" and whether or not the term applies exclusively to the autographs when used in our Bible.

    Yes, supporters of single-translationism do this frequently. </font>[/QUOTE]You are right, it is silly when they do it too.

    Lacy
     
  20. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    This source is incorrect because its version is infected.
     
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