1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Manuscript Inspiration.

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by DeclareHim, Aug 2, 2004.

  1. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0

    Scripture there referrs to the OT as used by the Jews of the time (the NT was not yet in existence). They were manuscripts copied in Hebrew. In the Dead Sea Scrolls are examples of such from that time period.
     
  2. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,736
    Likes Received:
    0
    Miseduction!
     
  3. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,736
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why do you think the interpreting to vv 1-5 is more important than translating?
     
  4. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2003
    Messages:
    4,818
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I never said "interpretation" was my favorite word. Actually, my favorite word would be "truth", something you are not very familiar with, appartently.

    You roar through, and accuse me of forcing my own interpretation on the passage. Well, it's not my interpretation alone, Askjo, but also of every non-KJVOist here. Why? Because we aren't trying to twist Scripture to support a lie.

    Actually, the translation is well outside the point. I looked at several translations of the passage, Askjo. Did you? Many say "him" instead of "them", but it really doesn't matter. One would either have to be dense, or to be trying to squeeze their own interpretation out of the Psalm to equate v 7 to refering to v 6.

    So where do you stand, Askjo?

    Oh, wait, I forgot who I was talking to...you have Michelle on your side, and she already knows all the answers. Sorry, my bad...

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  5. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    1
    Why do you think the interpreting to vv 1-5 is more important than translating? </font>[/QUOTE]:confused: :confused: I didn't say any such thing. I merely read the whole Psalm 12 -- in the KJV, by the way, as well as 2 other versions. Yes, I posted the grammatical notes from the NET Bible, but I read the Psalm in the KJV about 3 times.
     
  6. michelle

    michelle New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    3,217
    Likes Received:
    0
    Psalms 12

    1. *HELP, LORD*; for the *GODLY MAN CEASETH*; for the *FAITHFUL FAIL FROM* among the *CHILDREN OF MEN*.
    2. *THEY SPEAK VANITY* every one with his neighbour: *WITH FLATTERING LIPS* and *WITH A DOUBLE HEART* do *THEY SPEAK*.
    3. *THE LORD* shall *CUT OFF* all *FLATTERING LIPS*, *AND* the *TONGUE* that *SPEAKETH PROUD* things:
    4. *WHO* have *SAID*, With *OUR TONGUE WILL PREVAIL*; our *LIPS OUR OWN*: *WHO IS LORD OVER US?
    5. *FOR* the *OPPRESSION OF* of *THE POOR*, for the *SIGHING OF* the *NEEDY*, now will *I ARISE*, *SAITH THE LORD*; *I WILL SET* him *IN SAFTEY *FROM HIM* that *PUFFETH AT* him.
    6. *THE WORDS OF THE LORD* are *PURE* words: *AS SILVER TRIED* in a furnace of earth, *PURIFIED* seven times.
    7. Thou shalt *KEEP THEM*, O Lord, thou shalt *PRESERVE THEM* from *THIS GENERATION FOR EVER*.
    8. The *WICKED WALK* on *EVERY SIDE*, *WHEN* the *VILEST MEN* are *EXHALTED*. (*_* my emphasis)


    Help Lord.
    Godly man ceaseth.
    Faithful fail.
    From children of men.
    They speak vanity: f flattering lips
    Double heart they speak.
    The Lord cut off:
    flattering lips and
    tongue speaketh proud:

    Who said:
    Our tongue will prevail.
    Our lips are our own.
    Who is Lord over us.

    For oppression of:
    the poor.
    sighing of the needy.
    I arise saith the Lord
    I will set in saftey from:
    him that puffeth at
    The words of the Lord are: pure
    silver tried
    purified
    Thou Keep them
    this generation
    forever
    Wicked walk: every side
    when vilest men
    exhalted d.
     
  7. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is absolutely nothing here in this verse even remotely referring to autographs. This verse is about prophecies written down and preserved in scripture. ... </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't say anything about only the autographs being scripture- nor do I believe that.

    What I said and what you have avoided dealing with is that only the words of the originals were directly inspired by God Himself.

    A copy or a translation is scripture, the Word of God in as much as it communicates the same message God communicated in the originals.

    I agree with the KJV translators about variants. It was willed by God in His providence that variants crept into the text over the hundreds of years of handcopying. However none of these variants effects Christian doctrine whatsoever.

    BTW, the scripture you quoted refers to private interpretation... that is certainly what your moon/sun gender argument seems to suggest. That you have a private interpretation of those scriptures based on nothing more than the KJV translators' word choices.
     
  8. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2000
    Messages:
    4,132
    Likes Received:
    1
    michelle said:

    Help Lord.
    Godly man ceaseth.


    So by your own admission, Psalm 12 is about the oppression of the godly man, and it would be a bizarre change of subject for it to be about the KJV midway through.
     
  9. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,736
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trotter, Psalms 12:6-7 refer to the preservation of the Holy Scriptures, not people. Many scholars favor the verse 7 referral to the people. Why did they jump to verse 5 and cast aside verse 6?
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    skjo: "Trotter, Psalms 12:6-7 refer to the preservation
    of the Holy Scriptures, not people."

    That is your understanding.
    The translation can be understood more than one way.

    the REAL KING JAMES VERSION has a footnote at
    the second they in Psalm 12:7 saying there is
    a source variation that says "he". "He" is much
    more likely to refer to the people in verse 5.

    The context of the whole Psalms seems to be about
    people, not words. Only verse six (which could be
    parenthetic) mentions words.

    But I love to praise Jesus in 17th Century talk:
    [​IMG] Praise Iesus, the Christ [​IMG]
     
  11. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,736
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why the footnote? Why not the Scripture?
     
  12. michelle

    michelle New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    3,217
    Likes Received:
    0
    --------------------------------------------------

    The context of the whole Psalms seems to be about
    people, not words. Only verse six (which could be
    parenthetic) mentions words.
    --------------------------------------------------


    This passage is speaking about the Lord's words to which are the REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR. (John 5:39, John 6:68,
    2 Peter 1, 2 Tim. 3, Eph.6)

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  13. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    30,285
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The AV translators were honest. To help readers clarify (and not make the silly mistake of the only sect to think these were "Words") they inserted footnotes.

    Sadly, the KJV revisions, somewhere later in time, were not this honest. The footnotes were removed! Ripped from the Word!

    They ALL are accurate English translations of Scripture, askjo. God gave Scripture; man translates and interprets Scripture into other languages.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Perchance the 17th century
    (1601-1700) translators of the real
    King James Version of 1611 (KJV1611 edition)
    did not have a good insite into the
    ability of a 20th century (1901-2000)
    sect to deceived their people into
    deliberately misunderstanding this verse?

    Psalms 12:7 (HCSB - The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
    You, Lord, will guard us;
    You will protect us from this generation forever.
     
  15. michelle

    michelle New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    3,217
    Likes Received:
    0
    --------------------------------------------------
    Sadly, the KJV revisions, somewhere later in time, were not this honest. The footnotes were removed! Ripped from the Word!

    --------------------------------------------------

    So if I am understanding you correctly, it is very wrong that the thoughts and opinions of the KJB translators were "Ripped from the Word!" but it is okay for God's words to be "Ripped" out of the scriptures in the mv's?


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  16. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2003
    Messages:
    4,818
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Askjo wrote:
    Why jump from verse 5 to verse 7? Because David interjected a word of praise in midthought. I skipped over the interjection to maintain the running of the thought.

    Oh, if you don't know what an interjection is, re-watch "School House Rock". One whole episode was on them.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  17. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2003
    Messages:
    4,818
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You don't have a clue, do you, Michelle?

    God's words aren't "ripped" from the translations of today. They are different from your precious &lt;snip&gt;, that's all. Different century, different meanings, different words.

    In Christ,
    Trotter

    &lt;Sorry Trotter, as much as I may agree with your sentimates, Ihave to snip that word - Roger&gt;

    [ August 05, 2004, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]
     
  18. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,736
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok, let's count:
    1....
    2....
    3....
    4....
    5....
    7....

    Wait a minute! Correct count? Where is 6? Likewise you cast aside verse 6.
     
  19. superdave

    superdave New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    So now the verse divisions are also inspired?
     
  20. aPirate

    aPirate New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2004
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Once upon a time I read a Bible
    I would pick up this one or that
    I came to a church that liked number 4
    In fact they considered number 5 the more
    I considered the text and read, read, and read
    The good old King James Bible
    Then I listened, listened to the KJV
    Loved everything that I read and heard
    Read a book or two about numbers 2, 3, and 4
    Number 5 went out the back door
    Alas, I despaired and purchased a compare
    Searched scripture and compared and compared
    ASV, DBY, KJ2000, WEB, Wyc, and YLT to name a few
    Wish I had a clue as to what to do
    Comparing has brought me to number 1
    A long way from 4, almost 5
    Perhaps I am a zero today, as I like to read them all
    The latest version is within me
    Within my mind and soul
    I should pray for understanding
    Holy Spirit please guide me
    To all truth within Your Word
    And the KJV once more
     
Loading...