Marian Apparitions

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Zenas, Jan 31, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Zenas

    Zenas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    A number of these visions of the Virgin Mary have been reported, although only a few of these have been declared by the Catholic Church as "worthy of belief." The three best known are (1) the appearance at Guadalupe, Mexico in 1531 to the Indian peasant Juan Diego; (2) the appearance at Lourdes, France in 1858 to Bernadette Soubirous; (3) the appearance at Fatima, Portugal in 1917 to three peasant children.

    Of the three, Fatima was the best documented because it was witnessed by an estimated crowd of 70,000. At Fatima, the lady appeared to the children on May 13, 1917, and again on the 13th day of each month until October 13th. Word of the appearances had gotten out and a larger crowd had come each month. The lady had promised a miracle on October 13. On that day it was raining hard but nevertheless a crowd of some 70,000 had gathered. What they saw was the clouds open, followed by abnormal movements of the sun. After some 10 minutes, the sun stopped moving but the ground and the people's clothing were dry. For a detailed account, see here: http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/appariti/fatima.html

    I know most people here are skeptical of this kind of thing and I have doubts myself. However, I have spent a great deal of time studying the history of the Fatima apparitions and it is not possible to just dismiss them as not happening.

    So what say you?
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,149
    Likes Received:
    207
    2 Thes. 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    The purpose of Apostolic signs and wonders was to confirm the TRUTH being preached (Heb. 2:3-4). The purpose of demonic signs and wonders is to confirm LIES as truth.

    Hence, it is the message that defines the type of spirit behind the signs and wonders. The message of Fatima is straight from hell. Demonic apparations.
     
  3. Zenas

    Zenas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    Have you read about this? If you have what part of the message is demonic?
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,149
    Likes Received:
    207
    Paul calls the miracle signs of Satan "LYING" because they confirm falsehood. This appearance confirms MARYOLTRY as a whole which is a demonic false doctrine. Maryoltry is praying to Mary, worshipping Mary, placing Mary on the level of God as "co-redemptrix" and other demonic doctrines regarding Mary that denies she was a sinner, need of redemption but born without sin.

    You are a Deacon in a Baptist church and you cannot see that Fatima confirms the whole doctrine and practice of Maryolotry??????????
     
  5. Zenas

    Zenas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    I take it then that you know very little about what happened at Fatima and your conclusions are based on your beliefs about the Marian doctrines?
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,149
    Likes Received:
    207
    I have read the accounts and saw a documentary on it many years ago. But I am not so theologically shallow that I cannot see the clear hand of Satan in miraculous confirming the false doctrines of the Roman Catholic church.

    Why don't you embrace Joseph Smith and the manifestation of Christ to the American's????? His apparition is equally as valid as Fatima. Do you think the number of witnesses make something Biblical correct???
     
  7. Zenas

    Zenas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    Joseph had no witnesses. Not even his wife ever saw the golden plates. So, yes, witnesses do add credibility to a reported event. See 1 Corinthians 15:6.

    No, the number of witnesses does not make something biblically correct, but the Bible is not the Alpha and Omega of all truth. That would be Jesus. And according to the Bible the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,149
    Likes Received:
    207
    Amazing ignorance! The Bible is the Alpha and Omega of all truth because it is the only revelation from God given to man for the express purpose to determine doctrine and discern between truth and error - 2 Tim. 3:16-17; Isa. 8:20.

    What "church" are you talking about? The only "church" that is the "pillar and ground of the truth" is the one built upon the Word of God given to it by the Apostles and prophets (Eph. 2:20). The Incarnate Word NEVER contradicts the written Word of God as God is not the author of confusion.

    If you cannot see that Maryoloty is demonic you need to reexamine your own personal salvation.
     
  9. Matt Black

    Matt Black
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmmm...while personally finding some of the Fatima stuff distasteful, I find it hard to think that something demonic could exhort people to pray, "Oh my Jesus, pardon us, save us from the fires of Hell. Lead all souls to heaven."
     
  10. targus

    targus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2008
    Messages:
    8,459
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did Biblicist just put the Bible above Jesus?

    Is there such a thing as Bible idolatry?
     
  11. Matt Black

    Matt Black
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yep, you heard it here first! Finally he's exposed himself.
     
  12. mandym

    mandym
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,991
    Likes Received:
    0
    I say good grief!:rolleyes: Why Mary? They look to see Mary because they worship her. They see her a queen of the Universe. Cults look to see these crazy and false apparitions. Not sane people
     
    #12 mandym, Feb 1, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2012
  13. Zenas

    Zenas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    You're attributing something to the Bible that it does not attribute to itself. Here is what it says: “n case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.” 1 Timothy 3:15.
    You get no argument from me on that. :thumbs:
    Also agreed. :thumbs: But we're talking apparitions here, not Maryolotry.
     
  14. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    What I find amazing is that since they chanted "Follow Jesus" then that makes it valid to some.

    No it doesn't. :thumbsup:

    I recall this same thing in Acts 16 with Paul. Paul must have been wrong for rebuking her if he followed the logic of some.

    WoF tells us to follow Jesus. The JW's tell us to follow Jesus. So do most cults. They're not validated as authentic Gospels. Would we be amazed and shocked if Satan used the name of Jesus to deceive others? Matthew 7:22? Or, are some just that gullible and religiously tolerant that they are also fooled. So, put Jesus name in there and it's all good, right? Harold Camping says "Jesus" too, and talks of saving souls. The thing is we have to ask which "Jesus" these religions have.

    Also, what was the sign that the Son of Man gave to us? The sign is the Gospel.

    This whole thing even before I got saved has always given me a Satanic feel about it.

    - Peace
     
  15. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh boy.

    It's Mariolotry not "Maryolotry" and it's what they were practicing. They were "in awe" of Mary, reverencing her, worshipping her, it's part of their religion. How you can falsely conclude what they were doing in these instances wasn't Mariolotry is, well, not surprising at all these days.
     
  16. Zenas

    Zenas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    P4T, you're jumping to conclusions, probably because you find the subject matter distasteful. I agree that what they were doing was Mariolotry. But what about the skeptics who came to watch and were totally surprised at the miracle of the sun? Incidentally, no one actually saw the vision of Mary or heard her voice except the three children.
     
  17. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, you're the one who jumped to conclusions and accept this lying wonder as valid.

    I'm concluding it's not of God, and I'm not believing it simply because a human said "Jesus".

    Also, the whole thing is Mariolotry. They are looking for and in awe of apparitions of Mary, yet you say it's not Mariolotry? If you can't figure that part and see that as fact, then it's no wonder you're deceived by the whole entire thing.

    How does "what about the skeptics who came...who were totally surprised?" prove anything? It doesn't!

    I'd be impressed if skeptics came and heard the Gospel and left saved. You? You're adding extra biblical revelation to your list of acceptable theologies because it had "Jesus" stated in it, some "miracles" (lying signs) and other things.

    The bottom line is this whole entire thing is in fact Mariolotry and you've dabbled with it for years and have been deceived. This is the result of dabbling with signs and wonders.

    When I look at Scriptures, the only signs post Bible are those to deceive other than signs concerning His coming. Another thing, persons who see these things (apparitions, lying signs, wonders) typically now believe they are on their way to heaven due to this.

    You've been hoodwinked.
     
    #17 preacher4truth, Feb 1, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2012
  18. Zenas

    Zenas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    P4T, in your usual condescending style, you are jumping in without regard to what I said. Indeed, you are taking what I said exactly opposite from what it really was. I said: “I agree that what they were doing was Mariolotry.”

    And your reply?
    You also said,
    Again, I said no such thing. Matt Black may have made such an implication but I did not.

    You also said:
    You have no idea what I have done—or not. So I will tell you flat out, no I have not dabbled with, practiced or otherwise engaged in Mariolotry. But If I had, it is not your job to “correct” me on it. You’re not my pastor, and you never will be my pastor.
    I really don’t get this. What have I said to lead you or anyone else to believe that I am a disciple of Fatima, Guadalupe or any of the other Marian cults? I have studied Fatima quite a bit. I have also studied Islam quite a bit but that doesn't mean I'm a follower of that religion. However, I will say that we do pay too little respect to the Mother of our Lord.

     
  19. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    The bottom line is you have no Scriptural evidence to validate your embracing these apparitions as Biblical or of God. None.

    That you missed and dismissed the direct worship of Mary in these incidents as not being Mariolatry (worship of Mary) is telltale and astonishing.

    There is however evidence in Scripture, and much evidence, that shows that lying signs and wonders will take place, that Satan is not against using Jesus' name in such to deceive others, and that because Jesus is mentioned doesn't make the experience from and of God, and that because a person endorses the message of Jesus does not necessitate that they themselves are representatives of truth.

    Your belief is that these lying wonders are of God. Scripture offers evidence otherwise.

    You've been hoodwinked.
     
  20. Zenas

    Zenas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    All right. End of discussion with you. You either respond to my posts that you haven't read or you prefer to be a soothsayer and pretend to know what I am thinking. Either way, any further discussion with you on this topic is pointless.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...