Mark 8:34 Whosoever Will

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by ILUVLIGHT, Nov 2, 2005.

  1. ILUVLIGHT

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    Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

    Whosoever will come after me;
    Following Christ is an act of the will. This wasn't a decree to follow Him but an act of the will of the one who went after Christ.
    In The Light Of Christ;
    Mike
     
  2. russell55

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    I'm not sure why you are posting this here in the Calvinism/Arminism forum. I don't know anyone on either side of this issue that would disagree.
     
  3. just-want-peace

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    Maybe so, but I've read many posts that challenge the fact that man has ANYTHING to do with his salvation.

    Now as to the details of this belief from some, I am not knowledgeble, but some of what's been posted seems to say that it's ALL God, and any saved person is just a lucky recepient thereof!
     
  4. russell55

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    Saying that man does nothing to cause his own salvation, or that salvation is a work of God only, doesn't mean that following Christ isn't an act of the will.

    Are you arguing that salvation isn't all God's work? Isn't it "by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, 'LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD'? (I Corinthians 1:30-3)

    Not lucky, but certainly it comes as a result of mercy from the One who mercies whomever he desires to mercy. (Romans 9: 18)
     
  5. whetstone

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    Mike: Who will?
     
  6. johnp.

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    Hello just-want-peace.

    It was not luck but, "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding." Eph 1:7-8.

    John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

    It's all of God.

    john.
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Russel55;
    I think you're over looking the fact, that at the moment we become His, we are following Christ. And this verse spefically states that it is done willfully.
    No only Calvinist argue that this is what I believe. Faith is not a work.

    Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Without which we have no Grace. It is through faith that Grace comes.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    In The Light Of Christ;
    Mike
     
  8. whetstone

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    Mike: Who will?
     
  9. ILUVLIGHT

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    Jhonp;
    Really poor support for man not having a will in his own Salvation.
    Of course we are drawn and it is through faith that we have grace.
    In The Light Of Christ;
    Mike
     
  10. Helen

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    whetstone "Who will?" -- anyone who wants the truth. Men do seek God. The Psalm which is quoted about no one seeking God has to do with evil men, none of whom seek God. But others do, as in "Seek the Lord while He may be found."

    Funny how that verse gets ignored by Calvinists.

    All religions are based on the fact that people know they are not right, somehow, and need change. And so they work and struggle and desire to attain some kind of goodness or exaltation which keeps escaping them. It is only in Christ that that goodness may be found -- He is the answer to a UNIVERSAL thirst. And anyone who wants the truth, no matter how much a sinner they are, will be led to Christ by the Father. But first, as in Romans 1, they must want the truth.

    Men do seek the truth until post-modernism or violence-as-entertainment or any one of a number of other things cause them to become lost in a maze of "whatever's".

    Here are a few verses Calvinists ignore:

    "The Lord is a refuge for the oppressed,
    a stronghold in times of trouble.
    Those who know your name will trust you,
    for you, Lo9rd, have never forsaken those who seek you."
    Psalm 9:9-10

    The poor will eat and be satisfied;
    they who seek the Lord will praise him --
    may your hearts live forever!"
    Psalm 22:26

    "Who may ascend the hill of the Lord?
    Who may stand in his holy place?
    He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
    who does not lift up his soul to an idol
    or swear by what is false.
    He will receive blessing from the Lord
    and vindication from God his Savior.
    Such is the generation of those who seek him,
    who seek your face, O God of Jacob."
    Psalm 24:3-6

    'The lions may grow weak and hungry,
    but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing."
    Psalm 34:10

    "But may all who seek you
    rejoice and be glad in you;
    may those who love your salvation always say
    "The Lord be exalted!"'
    Psalm 40:16

    "the poor will see and be glad --
    you who seek God, may your hearts live!"
    Psalm 69:32

    "Cover their faces with shame
    so that men will seek your name, O Lord."
    Psalm 83:16

    Glory in his holy name;
    let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice.
    Look to the Lord and his strength;
    seek his face always."
    Psalm 105:3-4

    "Blessed are they who keep his statues
    and seek him with all their heart.
    ...I seek you with all my heart;
    do not let me stray from your commands."
    Psalm 119:2, 10

    Evil men do not understand justice,
    but those who seek the Lord understand it fully."
    Proverbs 28:5

    "Seek the Lord while he may be found;
    call on him while he is near."
    Proverbs 55:6

    "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."
    Jeremiah 29:13

    There ARE those who seek the Lord. It is best to let Bible explain Bible. Those who are evil, who prefer the lie, do not seek the Lord. Those who want the truth WILL seek the Lord, and will find Him.
     
  11. whetstone

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    So those who have more good seek the Lord and those who have more evil do not seek the Lord. Is that correct?
     
  12. Helen

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    No, not really. It has nothing to do with good and evil the way you are stating it. It has to do with a man's reaction to the truth that is presented to him in creation and by others in his life. All men are sinners. All have hearts that TEND toward evil always until they are given new hearts by the Lord in their new birth into His family. What is different is a man's reaction to the truth.

    What makes that reaction different? Many things. Often, how you are raised. If you are raised to value the truth, you will always value it. "Raise a child up in the way he should go..."

    But there are those who are raised in moral and ethical ghettos (no matter the wealth and circumstances of the family) who nevertheless still reach out for the truth. Possibly because of the nastiness of what they saw.

    God has truly put a God-shaped vacuum in every heart. Many try to stuff it full of other things, but many others, and even many of the former group, end up finding out that God is all that truly fits a God-shaped vaccum.

    There are many reasons for the different choices men make with their lives. But the fact is, God allowed them these choices and did not determine their choices for them, either as saved or unsaved beings. That is entirely up to us, each one of us. God knows, but that does not mean He has decided for each of us. We -- each of us -- has the potential of being a freewill offering of ourselves to Him.

    Romans 12:1-2
     
  13. 2BHizown

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    As thou has given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as thou has given Him. John 17:2

    Seems to me this confirms that He chooses us, thankfully!
     
  14. Helen

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    It's really wise to let Bible explain Bible and not just pick and choose a verse or two to back up what you want to believe. I know a woman who did this with "God is love" and used it as an excuse for adultery!

    Please consider the entire Bible. Use your Concordance, or one on the net, and look up the word 'seek' for instance, and you will find commands to seek God.
     
  15. 2BHizown

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    John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me

    Still seems true to me! He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world! Thankfully
     
  16. Helen

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    That sure doesn't show any compassion for the millions you seem to believe are predestined for hell.
     
  17. whetstone

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    No one is denying that God commands to seek God. But who will seek God?

    In your post to me in this thread- you said that the determining factors are background. One accepts Christ because they were brought up in a Godly background, one because of a very bad background. Is background the reason you accepted Christ? I'm trying to get a narrowed down answer Helen.

    Was it your background that caused you to acccept Christ when others just like you did not?

    God bless.

    Dan
     
  18. Helen

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    I have said that appears to be a contributing factor. I cannot play God for you and determine why each man does what he does. You want it all to be understandable, but it is not. Who knows the heart of a man?

    And again, I did not 'accept' Christ. He accepted me. I asked Him to, and He did.
     
  19. whetstone

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    So if you did not accept Christ- you are not saved because of your will. Correct?
     
  20. ILUVLIGHT

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    Whetstone;
    To say that God would comand man to do something man cannot do, makes God look ignorant of His own creation.
    No one deny's God is in control, that isn't the question. The question is what does He control. What is His will for man.
    Romans 9:21 says;
    Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
    God certainly has power over us and He could have made men unto dishonor, but did He?.

    It's reads quite different when read in Jeremiah;
    Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
    Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
    Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
    Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
    Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
    Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
    Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
    Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
    Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
    Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

    Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    "What If God" Without a doubt Paul isn't saying that God does control every thought and deed of man though He certainly could if He so desired to. He is not saying that God did/does create some men for destruction either. The problem is there is no reason for anyone to assume such a thing of God. We have the will to choose our own destiny and at the same time it is not a work. It is faith and faith is not a work.

    Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Those spoken of in Romans 4:5 could not exist, because it clearly says he did no work.

    We are comanded to Love God;
    Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    God simply would not have comanded man to do something He could not do.

    In The Light Of Christ;
    Mike
     

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