Mark 8:34 Whosoever Will

I am sure that Pharaoh had heard about the Jewish God, if you will, called the Lord Jehovah. He had conversations with Moses and yet as far as we know he never became one of the elect.

He was a leader of a pagan nation, had his own political power and future in that government. Apparently, he was not willing to give it up in order to believe in the living Lord, in spite of all the plagues and signs that came his way.

Because of Pharaoh's refusal to believe and trust in the Lord, 'the potter formed this 'lump' of clay into a vessel of dishonor.' [Romans 9:15 & 21].

Ruth, in the Book of Ruth, was a Moabites' woman did not let the Lord fashion her after a vessel of dishonor fitted for destruction. [Ruth 1:4] So too, Rahab [Hebrews 11:31] was saved by the Lord and was not among those who went to Hell.

Also, Calvinists hate to see Jacob and Esau listed among the O.T. saints of God [Hebrews 11:20], because it 'guts' Calvinism with its foolish claims. Isaac did not merely bless Jacob but also the blessed, Esau.

Watch one of the Calvinists 'blink' on this one.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

2BHizown,

You give much credit to God, all credit to God! He has surely blessed you.

KJB

 

Wow, that is so true! What a great God we serve! And to think I lived the first 70 yrs as an armenian, not knowing the doctrines of grace!
I was so totally awestruck to learn of God's great truths I've not calmed down since!! I read and study everything I can find and see that those great doctrines are so substantiated by scripture it only serves to increase my thirst even more!!
All the old great puritans had such a great desire for pure doctrine and fought so hard to pass those truths to us, even with loss of life at times!
Oh yes, I am most thankful and will never cease telling others and praising Him! Many people today take their 'christianity' for granted and lose the wonder of it all! Some of my kids were so horrified at my coming to the truth and leaving a liberal, seeker friendly, armenian church and I'll never figure that out! Just like some of the fellas on this forum, they too can be rather irritated when I speak of Spurgeon, Manton or Bunyon or the old puritans! As Spurgeon said, 'YOu can have your universal atonement. I'll never give up the doctrines of grace that showed me the reality of God's sovereignty in His world and in my life! Sola gratia! Soli deo gloria!!
Blessings to you!!
Why was I made to hear His voice,
And enter while there's room
While others made a wretched choice
And rather starve than come?
Twas the same sweet voice that spread the feast
That gently forced me in,
Or I had not come to the feast and perished in my sin!(not sure I remembered it all just right)

 

If you read the text of Scripture, the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart before he hardened his own. Get out your concordance and look at the chronology. It is very clear. It is also clera from Rom 9 that God "raised him up for that purpose." The "purpose" did not come about after Pharaoh rejected.

But Hebrews 12 declares that Esau wasn't saved, and Heb 11 certainly doesn't list him as a man of faith. Ray, we have been through this before and shown the text of Scripture that refutes you. Why do you continue? That confuses me.

 

Rev Dr. Berrian, ThD, Both Ruth and Rahab were in the lineage of Christ and Rahab being sungularly chosen to be considered a righteous believer in such a pagan country was no accident as she was wonderfully used for God's purpose to aid His people!
Ruth, being the greatgrandmother of David, was chosen to be wife of Boaz who exemplifies the role of God's kinsman redeemer. Ruth was a most honorable believer in God's sovereign and providential care. She was truly a virtuous woman!
Scripture clearly shows reprobation of pharaoh and Esau was long before they displayed any sin.
There are those chosen to election and those chosen to reprobation. We have to accept ALL that is in scripture, not just the parts we find easy and palatable!
Blessings,

 

So those who have more good seek the Lord and those who have more evil do not seek the Lord. Is that correct? </font>[/QUOTE]Sometime read the first five books of the Bible and see that people were doing their own thing until the preacher came and presented them with God's message to them. They were told to sperate themselves out from the crowd. Some did, and those who did not perished. Not one of them sought the truth until the message was told.

 

Pastor Larry,

Also, in my dissertation I found out that Pharaoh Hardened His Own Heart. Exodus 8:15,19,32 & 9:7,34,35 & I Samuel 6:6.

God the hardened Pharaoh's Heart:

Exodus 7:13,9:12;10:1,20,27; 11:10 & 14:8.

Pharaoh had verbal intercourse with Moses and had every opportunity to believe in the Lord God especially when the plagues hit his nation. But the facts reveal that Pharaoh remained rebellious toward the Lord. The Lord had no other choice after all of this providential mighty working on this occasion than to send Pharaoh at the hour of death to eternal destruction.

Also, Romans 9 is not showing the lover of souls, Jesus, saving some and damning others at will. God says in Romans 9 that God used Pharaoh because of his rebellious heart 'in raise him up so that His Name and power would be declared throughout all the earth.' (vs. 9).

Here is illustrated the Lord God has superior power and authority than any person, including the ruler of all Egypt.

To my knowledge the words, saved or damned are not mentioned once in Romans chapter nine. Can you find the words 'saved' or 'damned' in this alleged stronghold for Calvinism?

"Ray"

 

In the 9th chapter of Romans scripture goes great lengths to explain God's sovereign purpose of election/reprobation.

v22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, v23 and that He might make known the riches of HIs glory on the vessels of mercy which He had prepared beforehand for glory, v24 even US whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles. v25 As He says also in Hosea: I will call them MY people who were not MY people.
He clearly explains also in v 11(for the children not yet being born) nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of HIm who calls)
How could God possibly make HIs plan to choose some for election, some to reprobation any more clear than stated in these scriptures?
2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the scripture, You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked, but grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

If all other things were equal why did some seperate and some not?

 

Wait, wait, wait just a minute! I'm standing by watching all those who are ridiculing and scourging my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and you're asking why we dont feel 'compassion' on them as they beat, whip and curse HIm?
Pity yes, but I have no compassion for them as they even now daily in their lives reject, ridicule and urge others also to follow them on their journey away from what scripture clearly teaches! Could you actually stand by watching such abuse of your Savior and feel compassion for such people? They deserve our prayers, yes, that they will turn, repent and plead for HIs mercy on their lost souls, but 'compassion' is not a consideration!
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were they thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened, professing to be wise they became fools!

 

Is anyone here disputing this? Not sure how this got into the conversation. We all agree that there are commands to seek God, and we all agree that whosoever will shall be saved.

 

Does John 3:16 mean what it says or is it a disguised lie if Calvinism is true? With this view, the Lord is said to be offering salvation to all, by saying, '. . . whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life' while all the time knowing that He has selected His elect ones.

According to some people our Lord is not being forthright with we human beings. We may say a tad of deception is involved in this complicated plan alleged to come from Jesus.

 

Ray, this is an unethical form of argumentation. It deserves no place here.

Do you really not understand this simple issue after all this time here on this board and with your "ThD"?? Come on. Surely you cannot still plead ignorance on this.

Calvinism believes John 3:16 without any reservation. Any suggestion that Calvinism does not believe John 3:16 comes from either unwillful ignorance or willful dishonesty. You have been told this before and I am not sure why you still repeat something that you know to be false. It will not be toleratd.

And Calvinism believe that "whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." You know that Ray.

This is true for any view except open theism. Even your view of foreknowledge by which God simply looks ahead to see what will happen causes this verse to have the same 'problems' for you that you say it has for Calvinism. God offers it to all, but knows that only some will accept.

The deception here is yours Ray. No one here is accusing Christ of being less than forthright.

The differences here are entirely different than what you represent. And if you don't know that by now, then you should refrain from posting until you understand it.

These types of unethical posts are being deleted, as well as posts that contain misrepresentation and personal attacks. I have left this one here to demonstrate the fallacy of your arguments and to show why some are being deleted. I have more than 40 pages of this kind of stuff that I have deleted and that number will grow until you and others decide to act like Christian gentlemen in your debate here.

It should not be too much to ask for you to abide by some simple guidelines for ethics and honesty. Please help us to raise the level of discussion.

 

We BEG you on behalf of Christ BE RECONCILED to God 2Cor 5

Clearly the one being "begged" to act - is not God!

Clearly the "if somehow" model that uses Jealousy to movitate people to CHOOSE -- is an Arminian system through and through!

 

I agree Tom! Its about time for this whole thread to disappear! I am almost ready to do the same as there is no exchange of ideas here, just games people play in trying to distort bible meanings and make erroneous accusation and assumptions! Wonder who knows of the fruit of the spirit that is displayed in the lives of true believers?
May our sweet Lord lead us into His truth and be glorified forever!!

 

Ray,

Well that is not altogether true at all. Let us use an example in a scenario that you could make take place.

Since you seem to make claims (in your ideas I have gathered so far from many of your posts) that Calvinists do not seem to care about soul saving as much as Arminians......try putting yourself to the same test.

You are a pastor and I really believe you could gather up enough funding to fly over to Mecca Saudi Arabia during the time of ramadan.

Since you yourself claim that each and every soul is so valuable and God is not willing that any should perish.......would you in your zeal to possibly save one solitary soul take on such a venture of trying to save some?

All you have to do is go there and stand in the midst of millions of Muslims and go around proclaiming out loud the following real and true proclamation;

"Turn away from your sins and false God and turn to Jesus Christ for forgiveness."

I am sure you could learn that simple phrase in Arabic with a little practice.

Now with such a proposal in mind....who do you think cares for souls more.....people or God?

If it is God that cares for them more.....who has He sent to speak in all the places that people have spoke?

If it is you that cares more.....are you willing to go?

What do you think they would do to you there?

I would be willing to guess their wills are not free at all but rather in bondage to what they percieve as truth which is not truth at all.

Do you really think they can freely choose in an instant something that they are not convinced of?

The vast majority of them in great numbers would probably form a mob and destroy you.

I would hardly call what they have as "free-will".

If their minds are held captive to precepts and convictions that are not true but rather false......and they believe a lie with every ounce of their hearts.....how is that free?

Sure sounds like bondage to me.

Anyone against Jesus Christ is against Him. I would call that bondage. People are not on some sort of middle ground in this issue.

They are either lost....or saved.

KJB

 

The real problem is minimizing what Jesus has done on the Cross for all sinners. Christ made it possible for every sinner to have new life in God.

If these passages are faulty then a "Limited Atonement" is truth coming from the Divine Lord.

Review [John 3:16, Acts 2:21; Acts 16:31; Romans 2:11; Romans 5:18; I Timothy 2:6--'He gave Himself to be a ransom for all . . .'; Hebrews 2:9; I John 5:10, 13; Revelation 3:20 and Revelation 22:17].

Jesus atonement was and remains a perfect expiation for all sinners [I John 2:2]. The blood avails not only for the missteps of saved people but surrounds all sinners, if they only believe and trust in Christ as their Savior and Lord.

 

Ray,

I am not trying to divert you away or towards Mecca or my earlier post. LOL

Was just wondering if you think that the 1689 London Baptist Confession of faith is a very good confession or basically false?

KJB

 

Calvinists agree, but I think you know that.

You mean it's limited to thise who believe? Why Ray, I'm shocked that you assert such limits on the atonement of Christ.