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Married to the State?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Aaron, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Yes, it raises concerns in my mind.

    Yes, it profanes it to a degree, and also allows the government more access and control in the citizen's private life.

    Yes, I believe those who marry without a license, for that reason, have a valid marriage - spiritually. They are not married according to the state, but so what? There is no legal obligation to be married in the eyes of the state in order to live that way.

    If someone TRULY is against having the state involved and they marry without going through the legal system, I believe they are fine.

    If they're looking for an excuse to live together, that's a totally different situation and is immoral and putrid.

    Why should the state be the one to decide if I'm married or divorced? If there is no scriptural grounds for divorce, why does the state have the right to grant a divorce?

    That's part of my issue with people saying you have to be state sanctioned to be legally married. They also decide divorce, and they sure don't follow scriptural guidance when deciding those cases.

    So that's my opinion. There's no reason to feel you have to have state recognize your marriage. If you want that, fine. It's there. It's not required. You could go live in a house with 15 men in your bedroom and they could care less, as long as you all paid your taxes, so if it's morals you're looking for, you'll have to live up to them yourself without any help from the state. I know that makes some people sad, but that's how it is. Gotta take responsibility for your own morality.
     
  2. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Donna, the law says to be recognized by the state, you have to be married by the state.
    So I guess my question to you is this: Why do you believe the state has to recognize a marriage in order for it to be valid?
    Why would it not be valid if done by making a vow between the couple and God, officiated by a pastor, acknowledged by witnesses, and the vow made in the two people's hearts and confessed with their mouth and how they live?

    Where is the concept of needing state gov recognition coming from, rather than church gov recognition?
     
  3. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Then you will deprive any children of this marriage of their legal protections should there be death of the parents, divorce, or other issues.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    If the state said that heterosexual marriage was not marriage, you would be correct. But since they are not, you are incorrect. The fact that the state says something is okay does not mean that it is, and it does not mean that everything else they say is okay is wrong. So if the state said homosexual marriage (which is an oxymoron) is legitimate, that has no effect on heterosexual marriage.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Because we live under the laws of the land. If the state had no laws, then you would have a case.

    Because we live in a lawful society, and God says to obey the laws.

    The church never regulated marriage. It did not even exist until the time of Acts, meaning that if the church was necessary, no one in the OT was married. Yet they were, and were married by civil societal laws such as the Mosaic Law.
     
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Is this your opinion or a legal fact?
     
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    In many states a marriage license is optional. They will recognize common law marriages* between their residents.

    *A common law marriage is an actual marriage. The conditions to be recognized vary from state to state, but genreally a public notice of the parties' intent to marry needs to be published and a ceremony or rite of some kind has to be performed. Since there is no license, there is no contract with the state. Makes a big difference in a lot of areas, not the least of which is Probate.
     
  8. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    I am not aware of any legal protections given to children of a State recognized marriage that do not also belong to all children. Can you give me an example?
     
  9. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    What laws would I be breaking?

    I thought this over last night and there are no laws that would be broken. Maybe if I were forging documents or signing a licese without authority, but it simply comes down to the fact if the couple want the State to recognize the marriage.
     
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I believe it is a legal fact. Any time a contract exists, it exists under the laws in the state in which it was entered into, or as stipulated in the contract itself.

    When you sign a contract and have an issue with one party fulfilling their end, guess where you go? That's right ... to the state. I would think this is pretty obvious. Not sure why it would be disputed.

    As for common law marriage, not all states of the US recognize it (only 11 I think). And a common law marriage is still subject to certain legal requirements such as age. And common law marriage is still subject to probate court. So a common law marriage doesn't remove it from state jurisdiction so far as I know.

    If you live in a state which permits common law marriage, and you fulfill the requirements of it, then fine. I have no problem with that. As I have said, submit yourself to the laws of the state.
     
  11. Pastor David

    Pastor David Member
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    I found this quote from Rep. Ron Paul interesting,

    "While marriage is licensed and otherwise regulated by the states, government did not create the institution of marriage. In fact, the institution of marriage most likely pre-dates the institution of government! Government regulation of marriage is based on state recognition of the practices and customs formulated by private individuals interacting in civil society. Many people associate their wedding day with completing the rituals and other requirements of their faith, thus being joined in the eyes of their church – not the day they received their marriage license from the state. Having federal officials, whether judges, bureaucrats, or congressmen, impose a new definition of marriage on the people is an act of social engineering profoundly hostile to liberty."

    The point I found most compelling is the fact it is the date that the couple actually perform the marriage ceremony, not the date the marriage license is issued, that the couple becomes married in the eyes of all, including the law. So it would appear that even the State gives way to what Rep. Paul calls the "completing the rituals and other requirements of their faith, thus being joined in the eyes of their church – not the day they received their marriage license from the state".

    Blessings,
     
  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    The state does not need to be a party of a contract to enforce it. You should ask a probate lawyer what it means to be the third party in a marriage contract. I think the answer would surprise you.
     
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Superb! :thumbs:
     
  14. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    That's because both the license and the wedding ceremony are required in order to be legally married in the U.S. and you can't have the ceremony before you've obtained the license. (I've leaving out the option of a Common Law marriage which has never been condoned by the church.)
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Exactly my point. The fact that the state can enforce a contract or mediate a dispute about a contract does not mean that it is a third party to the contract, per se.

    Part of this is probably haggling over terms. Needless to say, I don't find what you have said convincing. Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps you are wrong.

    In any case, as believers, we are bound to obey the laws of the government unless they require biblical disobedience. So far, an argument has not even been suggested that it does.
     
  16. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    What do you mean? That was the only kind of marriage before marriages began to be licensed.
     
  17. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    That's at least 60 years ago. When was that?
     
  18. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    There are states that only require a man and woman to present themselves as husband and wife to have a legal marriage. In those states that is legal and the church should recognize this. The marriage license in those states are merely to record the man and woman who have the same interest and responsibility in that marriage
     
  19. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Not very many states permit common law marriage, and it gets complicated.

    States Permitting Common Law Marriage

    • Alabama
    • Colorado
    • District of Columbia
    • Iowa
    • Kansas
    • Montana
    • Oklahoma
    • Rhode Island
    • South Carolina
    • Texas
    • Utah
    States Permitting Certain Common Law Marriages

    • Georgia (if the elements were satisfied before January 1, 1997)
    • Idaho (if the elements were satisfied before January 1, 1996)
    • New Hampshire (for inheritance only)
    • Ohio (if the elements were satisfied before October 10, 1991)
    • Pennsylvania (if the elements were satisfied before January 1, 2005)
    Source
    http://www.expertlaw.com/library/family_law/common_law.html


    Legal complications can arise. It's easier and makes more sense to get the legal license.
     
  20. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    In Quebec, Canada, everything concerning marriages, baptisms and funerals goes through the church. As pastors, were even paid monthly by the province as we returned a completed a form listing each service we conducted. The province was once controlled by the Roman Catholic Church.

    In Canada, any couple living together for one year are deemed to be "married" and must file unified income taxes. It is also accepted in a court of law.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
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