Masters Divinity School

Rhet

You're right.

It needs to explained to me why secular studies should require more than some Christian ones. Are we serving a demanding Lord or not?

I do not mean to be snobbish! My BA and ThB (5th year) are from an UA school! Yet The Univ of SAn Diego accepted me into a teacher's training program on the UA BA and Point Loma (MA) and WEstern (MDiv (Equiv), ThM) accepted coursework from that UA school because that UA school was a good one!

So, I do not say RA or nothing, BUT I do say that Christian studies should have more rigor than saecular studies.

Two examples:

I was in the EdD in REading Ed at OSU, but most of my Western courses were harder than the OSU ones! And my UZ doc committee was very demanding indeed !

I have a student who has his JD from an accredited law school (Willamette Univ) , another is an RN (I think), but these say that I and our seminary (MDiv) expect more from them than did their other grad, secular programs .

Let's raise the bar!

 

I think such programs should be called "continuing education" for which you could earn a certificate or diploma of some sort.

A doctoral degree in Biblical Studies without any biblical languages? The M.Div. in Biblical Counseling at Southern Seminary has Hebrew and Greek as prerequisites!!! How in the world could a doctoral degree in Biblical Studies not require indepth study of the biblical texts in the original languages??

I'm sorry. That is not a doctoral program. Period. I can call my one dollar bill a five dollar bill all day long, but that doesn't make it so.

I would be willing to wager that these kinds of programs would suffer a significant drop in enrollment if they dropped the "doctoral" label. Now, class, what would that mean?

 

I want to be charitable and sensitive to the continuing education of our dear brothers.

I did check out the site. I was dismayed. The D.D. degree should be called a Bachelor of Divinity.

The Th.D. degree appears to be continuing education at the M.Div. level.

The Doctor of Biblical Studies looks like a Master of Ministries degree that Bible colleges have recently started to offer.

The D.Min. looks like what it is but at an inferior level (non-accredited aceptance).

Have we become so vain in our attempt to be "doctors" that any degree will do?

I don't see anything wrong in offering the programs. The dismay comes from calling them doctorate programs.

The actual degree status appears to be as such;

D.Min is really a M.Min.
Th.D is really continuing education.
D.B.S. is really a M.Min.
D.D. is really a B.Div.

Would you agree with this assessment?

 

UZThD:

Thanks, sorry you don’t like MDS, but oh well. Yes I did look at the South African School. The cost was about the same but I just did not feel good about it. I liked MDS’s variety and the live two week seminars that let you interact with faculty and other students. I did not feel comfortable that I would receive the same level of instruction from South Africa. If it worked for you then that’s great.

No my Masters is not from an accredited school. I have an accredited Bachelor’s degree but my Masters is not. Entrance requirements at MDS are specific to the degree program. The Doctor of Biblical Studies is offered with several different areas of ministry concentration mine being Pastoral Ministry. The basic requirement for admission is an earned master’s degree. From http://www.mdivs.edu/ :

The other four Doctor degree programs all require graduate work in Biblical languages. That is why I went the route I did.

You asked:

Well my answer is yes and no. Some doctoral level work can be done without any language study. Certainly it can be done without graduate level credit specific to Biblical languages. I am not entirely ignorant in the study of language although I do not have graduate level credit in this area.

You asked:

No, I have not. I am basing this observation on my little brother’s dissertation that he did as part of his PhD in Mathematics from North Carolina State University. In his position as a professor he has reviewed dozens of other dissertations and his comment to me was that it looked like I was going to do more than many of the PhD dissertations he has reviewed. I admit these were all related to Mathematics and mathematicians are not the best writers in the world but that was the basis for my observation.

You commented that:

Compared to other classes I have taken of course. Graduate and undergraduate classes at accredited and unaccredited universities. Based on the coursework, reading, and writing assignments required I have found them quite challenging. If you did not find TTS challenging that is ok. These things may come much easier to you. My first degree was in Mechanical Engineering and mechanical systems are much easier for me to understand then theological arguments and languages. They may just be harder for me. I still think I am challenging myself academically about as much as I would like. The two classes I have finished took me 6 months each to complete. I am setting aside 4 hours per week for classwork which is about all I can. So I am spending about 96 hours on each 3 hour doctoral level class. Does this seem like to little to you? I thought it was about right. When I was an undergraduate at Georgia Tech they told us to plan on 4 hours per week per credit hour so a 3 hour class would take us 12 hours per week for 10 weeks for a total of 120 hours. In reality it never took that much time, but those were mostly undergraduate level classes so perhaps I am underestimating the academic challenge.

You also asked:

I don’t think I will feel bad about it at all. Many people mistakenly call me Dr. now and that does bother me. I feel compelled to correct them and I will not feel the need to do so after I finish. Many preachers that are called Dr have at best honorary degrees and where I live it is rare enough to find one who has attended any BibleSchool at all. I will feel just fine. How will you feel Bill? Will my ‘second rate’ degree somehow cheapen yours. I am not trying to pass myself off as anything I am not or threaten your position as an honored scholar.

Paul 33 asked

That is a really good question Paul and I have to say probably not. I know it is not an accredited PhD program and I have no plans to teach at a college level but I still like the idea of earning a degree higher than that I already have. That makes me work harder at it. If there was no prize at the end of the effort I would probably not work as hard. Also there is my younger brother and his wife who both have PhD’s. There is a little sibling rivalry there that I will feel better about when I finish.

 

NCT,

I like you. I like your honesty and demeanor. I do believe that the work you are doing is helpful to you. I also agree with you that many who are called "doctor" in fundamental circles have honorary degrees and less education than you do (way less).

Your little brother's assessment of your dissertation is interesting. I know that there is rampant grade inflation in the secular universities. The kids just won't stand for not receiving an "A." Professors, in order to get tenure have dumbed down the standards. I don't doubt at all that your work is on par with many secular universities.

I also agree that given the same work, I would rather earn a doctorate than a certificate. I also agree that I wouldn't do the work of a doctorate if I didn't earn the degree as well. The carrot at the end does motivate. Is that pride? I don't know. But if I'm going to do the work, I want the reward.

Blessings on you and yours.

 

I can not understand why there is so much turmoil over an unaccredited program. How is my degree program any threat to the esteemed scholars of the Baptist Board? Am I somehow hurting you by going through this program?

How about the multitude of ifb pastors I know who are called doctors and have honorary degrees or none at all? How about the multitude of pastors without any Biblical training? How about the multitude of doctrinal errors preached from pulpits every week because preachers do not understand and preach what the word of God contains.

I am not earning your same degree from your same school. I am not trying to say my degree is as good as yours. I know the difference. So should anyone else that matters.

 

===


I appreciate your responses to my concerns. You are patient.

I am a Conservative Baptist not ifb. Perhaps I'm sheltered, but I know of no one in my denomination who does what you describe. It may happen, but I don't know about it.

IMO it is deceitful to allow others to claim an academic title "Dr.," unless the title is earned by doing what is expected in academia . To me that makes sense.

Where will it end?

Our registrar just took a DMin from our mother school-Faith in Tacoma. Just to get in Dan had to pass Hebrew and Greek entry exams. That's for a ministry doc not a PhD in Bible!

For the sake of argument, let's hypothesize that the MDS ThD is 1/2 the rigor of a Master's Seminary ThD or a DTS PhD. Normally an accredited MDiv and ThM is taken as prerequisites to these.

So, 1/2 the MS or DTS rigor at MDS is STILL is a doc?

Then, is 1/2 the MDS rigor required at Brother Bubba's Bible Skool also a doc?

Is 1/2 of that at Sister Suzi's read through the Bible in a year Program a doc too...especially if you've a credit card



Where does Christian TRUTH begin to rein in such hyperbole?


Where will it end?

Why do some here care that you get a MDS doc? No skin off our noses, is it? IMO it hurts Christian higher ed standards. I teach in Christian higher ed. So, yes I do care! Others here labor in doc programs much more rigorous than MDS. It's skin off their noses too!

But again, thanks for your gracious spirit.

You couldn't have gone to the UZ doc any way as UZ requires an accredited masters and high marks in an academic thesis done in that accredited masters. So, you were limited, weren't you!


Bill G.

 

==Your degree program is not a threat to anyone. I think there is real concern over schools like Andersonville, Covington, Masters, and Slidell for very good reasons.

(1) There are some people like my pastor, and yourself, who attend those schools for all the right reasons. You want to learn God's Word, you desire to preach God's Word, and you don't have time to pack up and move to a seminary town. Yet there are others who attend those same schools just so they can call themselves "dr", or because they could not make it at Southeastern or Dallas.

(2) Christian schools should strive to be the best academic institutions around. Sure a school does not need accreditation to do that, but accreditation assures the general public that the school has very real standards. This is of the up most importance when we are talking about online/distance learning. Anyone with a computer can start a school today. Accreditation assures the general public that the school has met certain academic standards.

(3) Why would someone attend a non-accredited school like Covington today with the very good, affordable, distance/online accredited programs that are out there today? Years ago it would be more understandable but today it raises some red flags.

(4) These schools do not have the academic standards of an accredited theological seminary. This is a real concern. Preachers should be prepared not just in the Biblical Studies and Ministry areas, but also in Church History, Apologetics, and the Biblical Languages. Most of these nonaccredited distance education programs don't educate their students well in these areas. The accredited schools will better prepare a person in all of those areas since they have more experienced/educated professors and they ususally use better texts.

==Then the issue is settled, right? You know what the Lord has called you to do and you are working toward that goal. You are aware what Master's Divinity School will prepare you to do, and what it will not prepare you to do. I would certainly rather see folks attend Luther Rice, Regent, or Liberty. However you must do what the Lord is leading you to do. Don't worry about the opinions of others, we are not your judge.

My pastor has a Master of Theology and a Doctor of Theology degree from Covinton Theological Seminary. He earned those degrees before the modern rise of online/distance learning. I also suspect, though he has never told me this, that he did not understand accreditation issues at that time. Since that time he has earned an Associates degree from a valid theological Seminary (he does not have a BA or BS) and agrees that his ThM and ThD are not the best in the world. Having said that he is one of the best in the world. Great man of God, great teacher of God's Word. We would not trade him for the world.

Do what God has called you to do.

God Bless you as you do!

 

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the spirit of this thread and the level of discussion.

 

===-

And thanks again to you for your gracious attitude!

 

I do realize the concern of many educated people. If Georgia Tech started giving out engineering degrees to anyone with a checkbook and 4 years it would cheapen my degree and make me less valuable in the workforce. At least it would have 20 years ago. As you move on in a carrer I think experience eventualy overcomes education whether it be good or bad.

However, if Blount County community college started offering a 4 year degree in mechanical engineering I don't think it would lower my value at all. A prospective employer looking at two canidates, one from Georgia Tech and one from Blount County College (I don't think there is one, my apologies to any distiguished graduates if there is) should know the difference. If you are highering a buisness graduate and you have two MBA's apply, one from Harvard and one from Montrete which one do you go with. Now Montrete college has an MBA program, a friend of mine graduated there, you can go nights and Saturdays and finish in a couple years, but it is not the same as the Harvard degree.

The dumbing down of American students and the lowering of standards is a problem, but the availability of non traditional education routes using mail, nightschool, the internet, and weekend seminars is a good thing that all students should take advantage of.

 

Agreement

Yes, Rhet, we're on the same page. I reciprocate in mutual respect and friendship. I esteem you highly as a colleague and brother in Christ.

 

I think you overstate your case in that these schools have no place in theological training. The problem is not that their instruction is not good or useful but it is simply that the education is not worthy of the degrees awarded. These institutions should award certificates or Th.G. diplomas. Of course, I suspect this would greatly curtail their enrollment because people seek them out precisely to get the capital letters at the least expense and effort.

 

Well said.

 

I gotta vent, so don't read if it would offend you.

 

I needed to vent - so if it would offend you - don't read it. And I apologize for rambling - I would clean it up, but that would take awhile.


If I begin by utilizing the analogy set forward between easy Izzy's and Georgia Tech. Both of which award degrees of the same length, but one is a sham. I find myself with an interesting dilemma.

I am told that I was doing graduate level work for my MDiv, but the first year of Greek wasn't counted, because it was 'undergraduate level'. Having a second undergraduate major in Spanish (some French, Japanese, Korean, & German*), I can assure you, that I did much less work per year of undergraduate language than I did in 'non-graduate' Greek or Hebrew sememster .

Further, in my other graduate program 3 classes was a difficult, trying, but entirely manageable load. In my MDiv, when asking about how to improve my work to be satisfactory for a difficult professor, the answer was always that I needed to start doing graduate level work.

Bottom line up front: My MDiv was much harder than either my BA work or the other graduate program that I was in (4 MDiv classes often required more than two times the work of my other graduate program's 3 classes - AND THAT IS NOT LOOKING AT THE LANGUAGES. It was routine for me to study 4 times as much for an undergraduate level greek class than I EVER did for any other language) - but I got less (significantly less) of what I needed from it. Yes, I am better in Greek, Hebrew, systematic, and church history. But, there is no room for the electives we need because we are requiring classes like basic descipleship.

The comparisons thrown around about the importance and significance of the Theological degree programs all miss some very important components:

1. The student's real dedication. I had read a quarter of the Institutes before I went to seminary. And I had perused the other three quarters. I am now finishing reading throught the GNT for the second time - and I have begun translating John.

2. Too many students do not go to seminary for a background in Theology for ministry, they go to get an education.

3. Continuing education is as valuable an indicator of a student's dedication to ministry as is an MDiv or PhD. (IMHO).

Well then my MDiv did not prepare me adequately for ministry: BECAUSE THAT IS NO LONGER THE PURPOSE. My MDiv was to 'educate' me. For crying out loud - I can read on my own. I have taught myself to a level in many languages that can sometimes fool native speakers. I read (& translate) the GNT to progress in my Greek capabilities. I am reading Isaiah (& or Jeremiah) in the OT to get my Hebrew up to where it should be.

But, I am personally stunned that I learn more about practical Theology during my personal studies than I did during a 90 hour MDiv. Few electives. No opportunity to get the skills that I should have gotten**.


90 hours - shoulda gotten a ph d out of that. But, I wanted to get the basic CHRISTIAN perspective on how to lead, grow, develop, evangelize a church.

And so I continue my studies independently. I knew that independent study was required before I started the MDiv (and I had finished reading the GNT once before my 'junior year').

And what do I see? 30% do not finish the degree. 30% more NEVER go into professional ministry (I hear that an MDiv should be required of SS teacher & deacons). LESS THAN 15% finish in the ministry***.

90% casualty rate for our leadership - we ARE COMBAT INNEFECTIVE. And all our leadership can do is say we need higher standards in the classroom? We need harder degrees?

I may not be the sharpest pencil in the box - but, I was able to compete at any and ALL graduate schools BEFORE I got a background in Religion. Yes, I am in the top 10% of GRE students. It is frustrating for me as a leader to KNOW that 90% of graduate students are not as capable as I am - but, we want to demand that the basic entry point for professional ministers should CHALLENGE my academic capabilities.

Brothers: WHY are we being so arrogant that we want to look down our noses on 90% of the men that are willing to give their lives to the ministry of Our Lord but cannot handle the academic load?

GIVE ME ONE HUNDRED MEN THAT CAN ACCOMPLISH YOUR IZZY'S INSTITUTE FOR THE INSOLENT that will only bow before GOD HIMSELF - and God will change the world through His ministry through me.

Go ahead - seek to lead the 2% of the men of this country that are smarter than I am - I want God to reach the other 98%. And if God reaches the other 98% through you - that will make me happy. But, this diatribe of my degree is better than your degree is getting old.

Therefore, I find that izzy's institute when growing men that God wants to lead through may be a much better degree program than our existing system. At least it can be accomplished by the bottom 70% of our college graduates that may not be able perform in our modern MDiv programs.

IMHO


* Did someone ask about my linguistic background in a different thread? Japanese was the only language that I have not taken college classes in. It was continuing ed and self taught.

** Yes, I did go out and do ministry - BUT THAT IS WHAT I ALWAYS DO. Graduate School did not change that.

*** Dr. John Bisagno indicated that from his class the number was about 10% that finished in ministry.

 

Having vented . . . Short version

Brothers, we have got to get past worrying about whether or not a pastor finished high school, college, or the 'best accredited' seminary. We have got to worry about whether or not we are serving the Lord the best that we can.

I don't regret seminary. But, I do hurt when we as a group complain about other men doing the BEST that THEY can.